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Assurance of Eternal Security
Eternal Security Debated by Scripture
Below is the contents of a web page that I was sent and I have copied the entire page as well as the address to it so you can verify the contents. I wish to address the statements on this page and will do it the following way. I will make my comments in Red regarding each area of disagreement. The page is copied below exactly how it appears on their web site.
In Christ, Adam Bartlett
Assurance of Eternal Security
From this web page: http://www.geocities.com/logosministries2002/assurance_of_eternal_security.htm
Introduction
While the believer may gain assurance of his salvation and know that he has been saved, the question may arise concerning the permanence of his salvation. Once genuinely saved by trusting in the merit of Christ's death on the cross for sin, can the believer lose his salvation? Is there anything we can do to lose our salvation? The answer is NO! Why? Because Scripture clearly affirms the fact we are protected by the power of God through faith. Faith brings us into a grace relationship with God as a gift of God through the merit of His beloved Son. We are saved by His record, not ours.
1 Peter 1:5 “who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”
Adam’s Comments:
I agree that we are protected by the power of God through faith, but what happens when a person loses that faith? The following scriptures indicate that it is very possible for that faith to be lacking.
2Cor:13:5: Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Col:1:23: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
1Tm:1:19: Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
According to your doctrine the losing of faith is not possible but according to these scriptures it is very possible and in fact warned against. Why would any of the inspired writers feel the need to warn of something that is not possible?
Ephesians 1:6 “to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved”
Adam’s Comments:
I totally agree with this verse but is has nothing to do with eternal security.
Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.”
Adam’s Comments:
It is not a matter of works that we keep our salvation but is wholly a matter of obedience. If we are obedient to Him then all the works will follow.
The following seven approaches set forth the case for the believer's eternal security, "buckled up for safety" because of the power of God and the overwhelming sufficiency of the person and work of Christ.
The Trinity Approach
The first argument for the eternal security of the believer stems from seeing how all three persons of the trinity work in concert to make and keep us secure in Christ.
From the Standpoint of the Son
Romans 8:31-39 what then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33. Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written, "For Thy sake we are being put to death all day long; we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Adam’s Comments:
The key piece of the scripture above is vs.39 with all the previous verses leading up to this question. What will separate us from the love of God? Nothing? Surprised? Nothing can separate us from His love as He loves us, He will love us no matter what, but He will not force us to serve Him. His love was displayed for us before we were born as Jesus was preordained to die before the foundation of the world. He loved us before we loved Him. His love will never change, but we do not remain in His grace unless we obey Him. He loves us while we are “YET” sinners. We do have eternal security on God’s side but it is not guaranteed on our parts. God will always remain the same and His love, commandments, conditions, and expectations will always be the same.
The declaration in Romans 8:34, "Christ Jesus is He who died," is given in answer to the questions of verses 31-33, and in anticipation to the questions and declarations of verses 35-39. The goal of verse 34, however, is to show the absolute security of the believer. Two reasons are stated in relation to God the Son:
Adam’s Comments:
You really need to go back to the beginning of this chapter because it is very contradictory to what you are saying here. Vs. 34 is not guaranteeing our security but simply stating what we already know, that Jesus is the one that paid the price for us. The beginning of this chapter makes it very clear that those that live in the flesh are susceptible to the penalty of the flesh. They will die in that flesh and there is no security in that! It is always best to read in context what is being said and not take parts out of a chapter to make a claim. In fact vs. 8 of this chapter says very clearly that those that are in the flesh cannot please God. Vs. 1 of the chapter says there is no condemnation in those that walk in the spirit and not after the flesh. It does not say that they cannot walk after the flesh. According to your doctrine that is not possible, but according to this chapter it is not only possible but again warned against.
(1) Christ Died as Our Redeemer and Substitute:
By His death Christ removed the barrier that separates mankind from God. Man's sin and God's holiness, which form a barrier between the sinner and God, were dealt with at the cross so God is free to justify us, declare us righteous through faith in Jesus Christ. The same truth is declared in the following verses.
Romans 3:23-24 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Adam’s Comments:
This verse is distinguishing between our faith being in the works of the law or faith in Christ’s work. It is saying nothing of eternal security. It is obvious that our salvation is through the work of Jesus and not the law. The question is the same as previously, can that “faith” be lost?
Romans 5:1,8: 1. Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 8. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. The book of Hebrews states Christ's death is the only sacrifice which counts and in once and for all time.
Adam’s Comments:
I could not agree more that our justification is through Christ and His work is what demonstrated that love for us. The allusion to the book of Hebrews is speaking about Christ’s blood compared to the animal sacrifices of the Jewish law. I agree that Christ’s sacrifice is once for all and that is why I have such disagreement with Catholicism. I also know that His blood is good for all time and as I said before we are always secure on God’s behalf. It is our side that is in question. It is interesting that you use these verses in Hebrews but fail to mention chapter 6: 4-6 which says:
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews 9:11-14. But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12. and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Adam’s Comments:
Again, this is speaking of the completeness of Jesus’ blood as opposed to that of the animal sacrifices. It is not endorsing eternal security.
Hebrews 9:26-28 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27.And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
Adam’s Comments:
It is appointed to die and then the judgment, does not specify anything about eternal security. He will appear the second time for all those that have kept the faith and await Him. That is why Jesus said Himself over and over “to him that endureth until the end shall be saved.”
Hebrews 10:12-14 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Adam’s Comments:
I truly believe that this was written not only for those Jews that still held to the animal sacrifice but also the catholics being that He knows the beginning and the end knew this doctrine would surface. Again, there is no need for several sacrifices but His blood is good for all time. He also clarifies that this applies to those that are sanctified, which is a lifelong process.
(2) Christ Is Risen and Sits at God's Right Hand. The second argument of Romans 8:34 concerns the resurrection and session of the Savior at God's right hand. He sits at God's right hand as our powerful advocate and intercessor to plead our case when we sin or when accused of sin, and to intercede on our behalf by virtue of His finished work on the cross, which reconciles us to God.
Adam’s Comments:
This applies to all the verses below that you use to justify this. According to what you are saying here is that once we are saved we can do whatever we want and not worry about seeking forgiveness because Jesus is interceding on our behalf continually. This is the most dangerous doctrine I have ever heard and a new spin to this doctrine. If this is your belief then you need to throw out scriptures like 1 John 1:9 and hundreds of others that command us to seek His forgiveness. Jesus is our intercessor but it does not negate our responsibility to repent and seek forgiveness. To repent means to turn away from, and that is something not needed in this doctrine. There is no need to turn away from a sin because you can never be in danger no matter what you do. Regardless of whether or not you are saying this outright it is very clearly declared in this doctrine.
Christ being our intercessor is a fact but it is not meant to be twisted to take the place of repentance and seeking forgiveness as you indicate in this section.
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night."
Romans 5:10-11 “For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.”
Hebrews 7:25 Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
John 17:11 And I am no more in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, the name which Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, even as we are.
From the Standpoint of the Father
Through the protection of our heavenly Father, whose holiness has been perfectly satisfied by the death of His Son, we are kept by His Sovereign Purpose, Salvation depends upon God to bring it to pass, not us. Nothing, not even our sin, can frustrate the eternal and sovereign purpose of God who determined to save us by grace through faith in His Son. Since God's holiness has been satisfied by the death of Christ, He can be just and the justifier of those who receive His Son by faith.
Adam’s Comments:
I took the liberty of underlining and changing the color to red in your statement above because I wanted it to stick out so all could see the error of this doctrine. This is nothing short of heresy. I cannot believe that anyone that has even a nominal knowledge of the scriptures could possible dare to make such a statement. You are basically, no not basically, you are definitely giving the green light to anyone that claims to be a believer to do whatever they please. This is an outrage to the justice of God and it is deception to those that believe this heretical doctrine. I cannot help but to harshen my tone due to the emboldened statements being made.
The statement above whether intentional or not is a Blinding Flashing Green light for the allowance of anything a person wants to do because there are no consequences. This statement exhibits the true nature of this doctrine that nothing can come between your salvation and God, NOT EVEN SIN! How ludicrous can a doctrine be before the average person understands the danger of it? This doctrine gives a license to sin and never worry about any penalty because they claim that nothing can void that salvation.
Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. His Love for the Son we are kept for the sake of the Son and His perfect work for our sin. Believers are "in the Beloved,” the place where God's love abides, and nothing whatsoever can separate us from the love of God (cf. Eph 1:3-above).
Adam’s Comments:
Again this is taken out of context and it is in no way indicating that we have a get out of jail free card to do whatever we desire. We do most certainly have all the things listed in the verse above, as long as we remain obedient to Him.
Romans 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 17:11 And I am no more in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, the name which Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, even as we are. His Work of Discipline. The Father's work of discipline proves we are still sons even when we sin. He does not disown us; He disciplines us.
Adam’s Comments:
It is not a matter of Him disowning us it is a matter of US rejecting Him through our disobedience. Matthew 25 gives two examples of this very thing. One of wise and foolish virgins and the other of two wise servants and one foolish one. In neither case does it say that they were never “a virgin, or servant” He simply said that they were foolish. They made a choice in and by that choice “THEY” forfeited their position, it was not taken from them. They lost it due to their willing disobedience. Read the accounts and you tell me where it indicates that they were immune to sin and it’s consequences as this doctrine assumes.
Hebrews 12:5-11 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, Nor faint when you are reproved by Him; 6 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He scourges every son whom He receives." 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you, as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, that we may share His holiness. 11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
Adam’s Comments:
I totally agree that God disciplines His children to keep them from making the mistake of continuing in a sin. However, it never says that He will force that person to remain out of that condition. The punishment is a measure of deterrence but it does not confine them and keep them from returning to that sinful condition. We have that choice and always will have the choice to either learn from the punishment or not. Those that do not learn and return are those that place themselves in the situation as the foolish virgins and servant.
1 Corinthians 5:1-5 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. 2. And you have become arrogant, and have not mourned instead, in order that the one who had done this deed might be removed from your midst. 3. For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Adam’s Comments:
This scripture is merely indicating that there may be times when God decides to take a person’s life before they are entrenched beyond repair. That does not mean that it will happen every time to everyone. It is not a precedent but a warning that it could happen if we become callous to our condition. Only God knows which situation merits this action and He will be the one that makes the choice to take a person or not. If you notice it is Paul that says “he” decided to deliver this person to satan, it is not a mandate from God.
1 Corinthians 11:30-32 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we should not be judged. 32. But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord in order that we may not be condemned along with the World.
Adam’s Comments:
“IF” we judge ourselves, we should not be judged. IF we judge ourselves the Lord will discipline us so that we do not end up in the world’s judgment. The discipline is to keep us from becoming reprobate and ending up in the condition of the world. Some do not adhere to the discipline and therefore become as “Foolish” virgins or servants and therefore place themselves in judgment.
Sin does not change our relationship to God as His children though it does affect our fellowship, the intimacy of our walk with God, our ability to serve Him, and the rewards we will receive in the future kingdom.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work, which he has built upon, it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire. His Sovereign Power Nothing or no one is greater than the Father, which means nothing Or no one can defeat God's purpose to save us or remove us from His love and care (cf. Rom.8: 31-39).
Adam’s Comments:
I highlighted the heretical statement to prove a point about the danger of this doctrine. This scripture is clearly speaking about the person’s works being judged, not their soul. We all have works in our Christian walk and all at various levels. Some however will have nothing to show for their life except that they were saved. They will have works but they were done under the wrong motives and therefore are not accounted to them. They will be burned up as wood, hay, and stubble, but their salvation is not what is being judged, it is their works.
1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Jude 24 Now to Him, who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
Adam’s Comments:
No one will deny that Jesus is “ABLE” to keep us from stumbling; the question is will He force us to remain on stable ground? NO!
2 Corinthians 5:17-19 Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Adam’s Comments:
When we become born-again we are a new spiritual creation in God’s eyes and all things are new at that point. Do you really expect anyone to believe that we will NEVER sin again after salvation? Our trespasses are not held against us as long as we repent and seek forgiveness continuously. When you give people the impression through this teaching that repentance is not needed because sin cannot be a factor in their relationship you violate all the principles of the Bible. It is Christ that reconciled us through His sacrifice back to the Father, but NEVER does He say that our sin will never be a factor again or that it cannot separate us from Him. You tell me how your doctrine agrees with the following scriptures:
Hebrews 3: 6: But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Hebrews 3: 14: For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Hebrews 10: 35: Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Colossians 1: 23: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
According to your doctrine this could never happen so why the warnings? Why the “IF” when according to you it is a done deal forever without a chance of losing it? Why the warning if according to your doctrine it can never happen?
From the Standpoint of the Holy Spirit
His Work of Spirit Baptism Spirit baptism refers to the work of the Holy Spirit whereby He places believers into union with the body of Christ and identifies them with Christ's person and work. If believers could lose their salvation, it would mean the body of Christ could and would be maimed. This is foreign to Scripture. To the carnal church in Corinth, which was full of strife, envy, fornication, and drunkenness, Paul declared, "are you not walking like mere men?" (1 Cor. 3:3). Yet, he affirmed the fact of their salvation and the presence of the Holy Spirit in their lives.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to babes in Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:2 to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
Adam’s Comments:
This section has nothing that endorses eternal security. It is speaking about our position as an individual believer in the “body” as a whole. Then you mix in verses that deal with sexual immorality. I fail to see how this verifies the issue either way regarding salvation. The body would not be “maimed” as you put it because you cannot “maim” a spiritual entity. I also disagree with your assertion that this church was saved unconditionally. Paul warned them very sternly in a verse you conveniently left out.
1 Corinthians 3: 16: Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17: If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
That does not sound like the doctrine that sin cannot come between our relationship once we are saved!
His Work in Regeneration
Regeneration refers to the impartation of spiritual and eternal life, which makes us new creatures in Christ. This can never change. First, it is based on the work of the Son, not our works. And second, as physical birth makes one a child of his parents forever; so spiritual birth does the same.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
Titus 3:5-7 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Adam’s Comments:
I have already addressed the first verse and it is already established that it is not by works that we are saved and this does nothing to endorse your doctrine.
John 3:3-8Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ' You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Adam’s Comments:
These are basic salvation scriptures and again do nothing to endorse your doctrine. Your comment above that I highlighted saying that regeneration can never change, it appears the Word of God has a disagreement with that statement. I have many scriptures that refute that thinking here:
http://www.bibleheadquarters.org/IsEternalSecurityScriptural1.html
As mentioned previously, rather than disown a disobedient child, God disciplines his children. At times it may even be to the point of physical death, but believers still remain His children (cf. above Heb. 12:5-12).
His Work of Indwelling
This refers to the gift of the Holy Spirit to indwell the believer, which was promised by our Lord as a permanent indwelling. The Spirit is given forever and given without conditions other than faith in Christ.
John 7:37-39 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.'" 39. But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
James 4:5 Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: "He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us"?
Adam’s Comments:
You contradict your own doctrine in what I highlighted above. The Spirit is given forever and as long as we remain in the “faith” then it is forever ours. Disobedience disannuls our faith causing us to be “shipwrecked” as Paul put it.
The Holy Spirit as a Seal
This is a description of the Holy Spirit from the standpoint of what He is to the believer through His indwelling. A seal in ancient times was a sign and proof of: (a) a completed transaction, i.e., our salvation, (b) of ownership, we belong to God, and (c) of security since only an authorized person could break the seal. In this case it is God and He has promised not to do so.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
2 Corinthians 1:22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
As a result, Paul declares that even the carnal Christians at Corinth belonged to God as a result of this finished transaction of their salvation in Christ.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
Adam’s Comments:
I noticed that you repeat a lot of your statements and use some of the same scriptures to verify it. However you are misrepresenting the facts again, it is not God that takes it away from us but rather us that forfeits that ownership through disobedience.
The Holy Spirit as an Earnest
This forms another picture of what the Holy Spirit is to believers in Christ. As an earnest agreement on a house is a buyer's pledge to purchase and pay the full price for the house, so the Holy Spirit is God's personal pledge and guarantee of our security promising us there is more to come: we will receive the ultimate or eternal blessings of our salvation. The term "pledge" in the following verses refer to an earnest agreement-like pledge.
Ephesians 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
2 Corinthians 1:22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
Adam’s Comments:
It is interesting that you use the home buyer’s pledge to buy a house. That buyer can still change their mind and not follow through on the agreement and then what happens? There is a penalty levied on the buyer for their breach but the contract is then null and void. What does the buyer lose? Their “earnest” money! Not really a good example for you to use to support your doctrine.
The Positional Approach
Spirit baptism joins the believer into union with Christ. This becomes the new spiritual position of the believer. Phrases such as "in Christ," "in the beloved," and "with Christ," used over and over again in Paul's epistles, refer to this concept. This calls attention to the fact the Bible emphasizes we are saved and accepted through our position in or union with Christ.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
Ephesians 2:5-6 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
Colossians 2:10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
2 Timothy 2:11-13 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; 12 If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; 13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself.
This is a place not only of security, but also of double security! Our union with Christ is a guarantee of glory.
Colossians 3:3-4 for you has died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
Adam’s Comments:
This “positional approach” means that we are even “double secure” by your definition. Could you please tell me then how Jesus could levy the following warning to HIS Church members in particular?
Revelation 2: 4: Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5: Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Revelation 2: 14: But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15: So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16: Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Revelation 2: 20: Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21: And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22: Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23: And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Revelation 3: 3: Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 3: 15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
You tell me who Jesus is speaking to in these verses? HIS CHURCH, not the lost world. He is warning His church to avoid these things and in every case He commands them to REPENT. That is the key, but according to your doctrine no repentance is necessary because sin cannot separate your union. Jesus seems to disagree with that message above.
I have no problem with the scriptures you are using and they are very applicable to those that are “In” Christ and remain in Christ through an obedient walk and submission to His Lordship over their lives which must contain obedience, repentance, and seeking forgiveness when necessary. Your approach is that once you are saved, nothing else is necessary because regardless of what you do you can NEVER LOOSE that salvation. What a convenient doctrine!
The Logical Approach
Simply stated, if God did so much for us while we were sinners, Completely alienated and enemies of God before salvation, how much more will He not do for us now that we have been reconciled and stand related to Him as His children who have been justified, declared righteous in Christ?
Romans 5:8-10 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Romans 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
Adam’s Comments:
These verses still do not declare that we cannot step out of our faith and through that reject what we had. I will continue my position over and over that God will not fail us in His love, promises, or protection. It is by our disobedience that we forfeit our position with Him and therefore lose the covering of those things.
God's Hand Approach
A specific and wonderful promise from the Lord is that no one (and this must include Satan or ourselves) can remove us from either the hand of the Son or the Father. Scripture tells us we are in God's hand, which is a place of perfect security because He is greater than all.
John 10:28-29 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
Adam’s Comments:
Please show me where this scripture says that we cannot walk away from that hand? Please show me how this scripture would disagree with all the others I have listed to this point and on my page.
The Tense Approach
The use of the perfect tense in a number of New Testament passages would further point to the believer's security. The meaning of the perfect tense in Greek combined with the context and the analogy of Scripture forms another argument for the security of the believer. The perfect tense refers to action or an event which, completed in the past, has results existing in the present time (i.e., in relation to the time of the speaker). It looks at the present state of affairs.
The following passages that use the perfect tense stress the saved state of the believer who has trusted in the Savior.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Romans 5:2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
1 Corinthians 1:2 to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Adam’s Comments:
The tense is indicative of the present condition of the person at that time I will agree. IF a person is in the faith and under grace then there is not a problem. I believe that we can have assurance of our salvation and that assurance is in the fact that we remain obedient and in a state of repentance and seek forgiveness when needed. I do not disagree that we can have assurance in our salvation but I draw the line when we put an unconditional clause in there as you do in your doctrine. I will never presume upon God nor will I ever be bold enough to lead someone astray by telling them that they can NEVER lose their position in Christ regardless of sin. There is a major difference in these two positions.
The Grace Approach
This argument is simply this. The New Testament plainly states we are saved by grace through faith in the person and work of Christ, and that salvation is not of human works or works of righteousness, which we have done. If, however, having put our trust in the person and work of Christ, we can lose our salvation by what we do or do not do, then in the final analysis, works saves us. This is contrary to the theology of the New Testament (cf. also Rom. 4:1-5; 11:6).
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds, which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Adam’s Comments:
I have already covered this many times, I agree it is not done by works and again I ask the same question. What is the purpose of the many warnings by Jesus to His OWN people about something that according to this doctrine is not possible?
What Sin Approach
This approach asks the question, "What sin causes a person to lose his salvation?" Sin, any sin falls short of the perfect holiness of God. Every person, regardless of his maturity or relationship with the Lord, is far from perfect by God's standard. We all have something in our lives, which falls short of God's glory, i.e., some sin though it may be unknown.
1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. Where, then, do we draw the line? Those who believe we can lose our salvation categorize sin as though God overlooks some sins while He judges others. It becomes a matter of degrees and the question arises, how bad must we become before we lose our salvation? Which sin does us in? People often categorize sin into various levels, but their categories are usually out of touch with God's perspective.
Proverbs 6:16-19 There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers.
Adam’s Comments:
It is not a matter of “one’ particular sin but a matter of “continuous” sin that becomes the stumbling block. We all agree that a Christian will sin and does sin, but this is where the doctrines separate because according to your teaching this “sin” or any sin for that matter is not a problem. A Christian can sin and then get caught up in that sin and continue in that sin. With that continuance this Christian is abusing the gift of grace and will eventually quench the Holy Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 5: 19: Quench not the Spirit.
Again, why warn about something that is not possible? We can quench the Spirit and when we do then as Revelation 3:5 plainly states our name can be blotted out of the book of life.
Problem Passages
What about those passages that are often taken to mean the believer can lose his salvation? For this study, we cannot deal with all these passages. Generally, however, we can show that none of these passages teach we can lose our salvation if the immediate context and the context of the entire New Testament is considered, or if the principle of the analogy of the faith is considered.
Adam’s Comments:
I personally believe that you omit the problem passages as you put it because you cannot avoid seeing the truth in them. You realize that you would have to twist, rationalize and justify these passages because you cannot make them fit your doctrine. For example, you have already agreed that “ALL” sin including Christians so what would you do with this verse?
1 John 3: 8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
How do we resolve the conflict of this passage? The answer is in the word “Commit” in these verses. It can also be translated “Practice.” Therefore John is saying that one that continues to deliberately and habitually “practice” sin is not of God. He is saying that those that belong to God should not be “practicing” sin but he does not say that they “CANNOT” do this. Therefore, if they are able to commit this, then what is the end result for them? Again, this is not directed to the world but to those belonging to Christ. Those that belong to Christ should not practice sin and if they do then they are backsliding and are in danger of quenching the spirit. They are the ones the warnings are levied against in all the scriptures I have listed.
The Analogy of the Faith
The analogy of the faith is a hermeneutical principle which says unclear passages should be understood in the light of clear ones, not vice versa. It is my conviction that those who believe we can lose our salvation, or who teach Lordship salvation, violate this principle.
They violate this principle in two ways:
(1) They base their understanding of the gospel on unclear passages rather than the many very clear ones.
(2) They overthrow the correct interpretation of clear passages by understanding them in the light of their faulty views of the unclear or more difficult passages of Scripture.
Categories of Difficult Passages
The problem passages (those used to teach believers can lose their salvation, or used to teach that they were never really saved or they would never do such and such) in reality fall into one or more of the following categories and do not deal with the issue of eternal salvation:
(1) Passages that deal with the Bema (the Judgment Seat of Christ) and are thus warning believers against the potential loss of rewards-rather than the loss or lack of salvation.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work, which he has built upon, it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.
1 Corinthians 9:25-27 And everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
(2) Passages that warn against the severity of God's discipline in this life when believers refuse to respond to His grace.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Hebrews 6:1-6 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings, and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we shall do, if God permits. 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.
Hebrews 10:23-31 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near. 26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31.It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Adam’s Comments:
I see your doctrine as being guilty of this more than anyone. For example the verses above are very clear to me and if anyone without bias would be honest there is no doubt in what is being said. How in the world can you take verses 4&5 of Hebrews 6 above to apply to anyone other than a believer? I took the liberty of highlighting the descriptions of the people being spoken of. You tell me how it could be referring to anyone but a believer? I cannot believe you can use these scriptures and still hold to your erroneous doctrine.
Hebrews 6: 4-5 look at these attributes: enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, partaker of the Holy Spirit, tasted the Word of God and the power. Then as verse 6 states “Then to fall away” how could they fall away from something they never had? Were they saved? YES! Did they fall away? YES! To further prove it they cannot be “renewed” which is speaking of what? Their salvation! You have provided the very scriptures that cry out loudly against your own doctrine.
Look at the next verse you so aptly provided. Hebrews 10:26 – If “WE” go on sinning after receiving the truth. Who is the “WE?” Is it the Lost? NO! Who is this person then? It is a person according to verse 29 that had been “SANCTIFIED” by the blood and then trampled it under foot. Then to make sure that there was no mistake about who was being addressed in verse 30 it is made crystal clear that the LORD judges HIS PEOPLE!
Tell me again, how is this a problem passage? Oh, that’s right it is only a problem if you believe the doctrine you are propagating.
(3) Passages that portray the nature of who we are as God's children, and that, which must, therefore, characterize us as children of God. This includes passages that portray the nature and condition of unbelievers as a motivation to godly living or living like the people we have become position ally in Christ.
These passages do not threaten us with the loss of salvation nor do they call us to question our salvation. They challenge us to live like the people we are in Christ. For instance, compare
Ephesians 5:1-12. 1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for an offering, a sacrifice and us to God as a fragrant aroma. 3 But do not let immorality or any impurity or greed even be named among you, as is proper among saints; 4 and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7Therefore do not be partakers with them; 8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light 9 for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth, 10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; 12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things, which are done by them in secret.
The Argument of 1 John 3:6f.
1 John 3:6-10 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is Righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practice sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
First John 3:6 occur in a section where John is giving reasons why believers should not sin. Here he gives one reason after another not to question our salvation but to motivate believers to walk in the light. Does 1 John 3:6b mean the abiding believer, the one who clings to Christ, actually never sins? Such an idea would contradict 1 John 1:8 and 10 and 5:16. Because of our weakness and lack of perfection in this life, even abiding believer’s sin. So what does John mean?
Adam’s Comments:
I already addressed this above and I do not agree with you analogy above regarding this passage.
As an illustration, let's say a young child steals a pack of gum at the supermarket. When the mother finds out, she says, "the members of this family do not steal. Do you understand that?" Does that make sense? One of them had just done that very thing. What was this mother saying? She was saying that stealing was against the moral standards of their family, and therefore, the little boy had to learn this lesson and refrain from ever doing it again. She wasn't saying she had gone around and checked and found that none of the members of the family had ever stolen. She was pointing out the standards of their family as a motivation to the son.
John is simply telling us, this is the standard, that we do not sin, and we need to get with the plan. He is not denying that believer’s sin or that they can fall into the pattern of sinning. To drive this concept home even more, this verse is followed by more reasons and illustrations against sin in the lives of believers.
Another statement for motivation is in verse 9: "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." It is not saying believers are incapable of sinning. This would contradict the verses mentioned above.
Most take this verse to mean that John is saying Christians cannot sin or will not sin habitually. Is this what John is saying? No. I do not believe this is his point. "Practices" is a misleading translation. If that was John's point, the Greek prasso, which John uses in the verses below, could have expressed that more clearly.
John 3:20 For everyone who does (prasso) evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
John 5:29 and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed (prasso) the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Adam’s Comments:
You cannot take the way John interpreted one passage and then apply it to the rest of his writings. We are talking about five different books that John wrote and to presume to know what he was meaning is a perfect example of what I was indicating earlier about how these doctrines cause individuals to stretch or twist scriptures to fit. Now we have moved to the point that we claim to know what John was thinking when he was writing his books. I believe that it is written just as he intended it to be.
So, what is John saying? The word "cannot" does not always mean incapable. It can also mean unwilling. The following New Testament passages illustrates this:
Luke 11:5-7 And He said to them, "Suppose one of you shall have a friend, and shall go to him at midnight, and say to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine has come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him'; 7 and from inside he shall answer and say, 'Do not bother me; the door has already been shut and my children and I are in bed; I cannot get up and give you anything."
Luke 14:20 And another one said, 'I have married a wife, and for that reason I cannot come.'
Mark 1:45 But he went out and began to proclaim it freely and to spread the news about, to such an extent that Jesus could no longer publicly enter a city, but stayed out in unpopulated areas; and they were coming to Him from everywhere.
Mark 6:3-5 "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him. 4 And Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his home town and among his Own relatives and in his own household." 5 And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands upon a few sick people and healed them.
1 Corinthians 10:21 you cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
First John 3 is saying we must be unwilling to sin because we were born of God's nature. This is much like Romans 6:1-10 which follows the declaration of 5:20-21.
Adam’s Comments:
You now illustrate my point to a deeper degree comparing what John must have meant by what three other writers use in their writings. Can you not see what you are doing? What lengths we a person go to when trying to justify a doctrine. I have used nothing but scripture and just as they appear to make my point.
Let's say a doctor tells a smoker with throat problems, "You cannot smoke again." This doesn't mean the person is incapable of smoking but that he must not because of the physical consequences to his body.
It is clear from the life of King David, who is called a man after God's own heart, that believers can and do fall into serious sin and for long periods of time. For believers in Christ (with all that they have in Christ) to live under sin's reign like the unbelieving world is an illogical and contradictory position. It carries with it very serious consequences including the possibility of the sin unto death as God's divine discipline to stop the pattern of sinning.
1 Corinthians 11:27-32 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself, if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number but if we judged ourselves rightly, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord in order that we may not be condemned along with the world.
1 John 5:16-17 If anyone sees his brother commit sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.
The Consequences of Carnality
(Living with Known Sin in the Life)
Key Passages:
Psalm 66:18 If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear;
Psalm 32:3-4 when I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away through my groaning all day long. 4 For day and night Thy hand was heavy upon me; my vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer.
1 John 1:6 if we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
Adam’s Comments:
Your reasoning is that if a Christian crosses that line then God will just kill them and take them. Again, that is not consistent with the other scriptures I presented and does not agree. Scripture does not contradict itself and I have listed many that do not agree with this principle and many more on my site. I do agree that in certain circumstances God will do this because the Word says He will, but it does not give it as a mandate for all.
(1) Loss of fellowship with the Lord plus loss of the control of the Holy Spirit and His fruit in the life (cf. 1 Jn. 1:5-7). Sin grieves and quenches the Spirit (Eph. 4:30; 1 Thess. 5:19). Sin affects our prayer life (Ps. 66:18), our witness (Acts 1:8), Bible study (1 Cor. 2:10-16; Eph. 3:16f), i.e., all the ministries of the Holy Spirit in believers’ lives. The Holy Spirit's ministry is turned from enabling to convicting, etc.
1 John 1:5-7 And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the lightas He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Ephesians 4:30 and do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
1 Thessalonians 5:19 do not quench the Spirit;
Psalm 66:18 If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear;
Acts 1:8 but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.
1 Corinthians 2:10-16 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men know the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit Who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.15 but he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Ephesians 3:16-19 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man; 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
(2) Misery, loss of joy, because we are controlled by the sinful nature.
Psalm 32:3-4 when I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away through my groaning all day long. 4 For day and night Thy hand was heavy upon me; my vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer.
(3) Dissipation or wastefulness of our spiritual, mental, and physical resources.
Ephesians 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,
(4) Production of the works of the flesh with their awful consequences.
Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
(5) Divine discipline, the heavy hand of God on our lives to turn us around.
Hebrews 12:5-10 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, Nor faint when you are reproved by Him; 6 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He scourges every son whom He receives." 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, that we may share His holiness.
1 Corinthians 11:29-32 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself, if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord in order that we may not be condemned along with the world.
Psalm 32:4 For day and night Thy hand was heavy upon me; my vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer. (6) Broken relationships and pain to those around us, especially to our families.
Galatians 5:15 but if you bite and devour one another, take care lest you be consumed by one another.
Hebrews 12:15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
Adam’s Comments:
I agree with all the scriptures you list above but the degree of severity is where we part company.
(7) Loss of our testimony in the world and dishonor to the Lord.
1 Peter 2:12-15 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may on account of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation. 13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
1 Peter 3:15-17 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.
1 Peter 4:15-16 By no means let any of you suffer as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; 16 but if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed, but in that name let him glorify God.
Adam’s Comments:
Again, same as above.
(8) Loss of rewards at the Bema seat of Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work, which he has built upon, it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
Adam’s Comments:
Again, I agree with you here that these verses apply to “works” and not salvation.
Consequences of Continued and Open Rebellion
In addition to the above the following apply:
1) Increased discipline from the heavy hand of God.
Psalm 32:4 For day and night Thy hand was heavy upon me; my vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer.
Hebrews 12:6 for those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives.
Adam’s Comments:
I agree but you tell me what happens when the discipline goes unanswered? When a person refuses to change and continues in sin regardless of the punishment, then what? According to your doctrine God will take their life and they do not have a choice to reject God completely. Again, that is contrary to the many scriptures I have listed.
(2) Continuation in sin may require the church to take action even to the point of excommunication (1 Cor. 5).
2 Thessalonians 3:6-15 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep aloof from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you, 8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we might not be a burden to any of you; 9 not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, that you might follow our example. 10 For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone will not work, neither let him eat. 11For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies. 12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread. 13 But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary of doing good. 14 And if anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that man and do not associate with him, so that he may be put to shame. 15 And yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
Matthew 18:17 And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer.
(3) Divine discipline to the point of physical death.
1 Corinthians 11:30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.
I John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.
Certainly, believers are secure in Christ and cannot lose their salvation, a salvation accomplished by the finished work of the Savior who sits victoriously at God's right hand to plead our case. But reality, and Scripture shows us, unless believers abide in fellowship and deal in faith with the sin in their lives, they can fall into serious conditions of sin just like David. Such can happen because the person was never truly saved, but quite often the real cause is a failure to abide in the life and power of the Spirit of God.
It is our hope that this study on the eternal security of the believer has been help. The goal of understanding our security is an assurance that motivates to godly living, never careless living or taking the Lord for granted. Remember, God is our heavenly Father who, in love will discipline His children to draw them back to himself.
The apostle staked his faith on the trustworthiness of God's grace. Though some understand this to refer to God's deposit of gifts in Paul, I believe that which he had entrusted, literally, "the deposit," was his personal faith in the finished work of Christ as the basis of his salvation. Paul was confident that this would be preserved until all the dangers and failures of life would be past with the coming of the Lord
Adam’s Comments:
I was wondering when this phrase would come up, “They were never saved.” That is a copout to facing what the scriptures say in contradiction to your doctrine. Again, I have provided the scriptures that refute this teaching and I simply ask that you allow the Word to have the final say. Not twisting, guessing, or trying to imply what someone was thinking when they wrote it. Let the scriptures say what they clearly say. I challenge any eternal security believer to look at the scriptures I provide in this paper and the page on my site regarding this matter and see for yourself. See if they do or do not say what I indicate they say. See if there is any twisting used to support my views.
This is a very dangerous doctrine in what it implies and that is something that they can never get away from. Whether or not they actually teach the Green Light fact, it is there and it is very much implied and will be used by any Christian following this teaching.
In Christ, Adam Bartlett
Bible Headquarters
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