Responses 2002

Subj: RE: Hi

Date: 2/8/02 5:09:00 PM Central Standard Time

From: mkchristiano@tasc.com (Christiano, Michael K.)

To: adb4jesus@aol.com ('adb4jesus@aol.com')

Dear Sir,

I should start out by saying I am Catholic. I should also say that although I don't know you I am giving you the benefit of the doubt--I will not think you hate Catholics. I will also assume you wish to have truth. That is what concerns me too. My mind is made for truth. I am hungry for it and open to it. So open in fact that 10 months ago I was willing to leave the Catholic Church. You see I had a Lutheran girlfriend that I loved. I did not know a lot about my faith at that point. I knew some but I didn't know heavy theology. She said her religion was right. I was willing to be open to search for the truth. The relationship soon ended. But it started me studying. And I've been digging for almost a year. I want to tell you that at the outset I told God I would go wherever He wanted me to go and I meant it. I am still Catholic and have found the truth in it. I'm sure the Catholic Church looks very foreign to you. It differs even in culture with American Protestantism. I am being honest with you sir. I do see a little slant in your writing . Word usage seems to twist what Catholic believe. I have just skimmed a little so I will not prejudge. I will write again. Please remember my name. I would not like to fight or bicker but discuss in a humble manner. I ask you to pray. I will do the same. Please pray that God opens our eyes to the truth. I pray that in true humility. I don't know if you can tell that through an electronic e-mail. Also, I am someone who realizes he sins and hates it. It is so tough with Christ as a role model. Nonetheless,it is that perfection I seek although I know I can never reach it on earth. Any successes I have are due to God's grace.

Thank you, Michael Christiano

Subj: Re: Hi

Date: 2/8/02 10:12:59 PM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: mkchristiano@tasc.com

Hello Michael,

Thank you for you words and I would be very happy to talk to you about this issue and I will do my best to keep it in humility and on a level of respect. You are very right about your statement, I do not in any way hate "catholics" I do have major problems with their doctrine and that is what we can discuss if you please. Thanks again for you email and look forward to talking to you. Adam

Subj: Re: question

Date: 2/14/02 2:29:27 PM Central Standard Time

From: ben11912@yahoo.co.nz (Ben Wong)

To: ADB4JESUS@aol.com

Hello again Adam, I have a question for you, for my exam this year for English, I have to write an expository essay on "Should Sex Education be thought in Schools" I was wondering if you could provide me with any good arguments and/or stats against the statement above, please realise that it is dued on Monday.

If you could be of help I would be most grateful because the research I have done so far has seemed to be one sided.

Ben

Subj: Re: question

Date: 2/15/02 9:07:46 AM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: ben11912@yahoo.co.nz

Hello Ben,

Thank you for the question. I am very opposed to public schools teaching our children about sex education. First, the schools are only going to teach the children from a secular perspective and not what is morally right according to the Bible's standards. The Bible is clear about "fornication" and the guidelines of what a proper marriage are set up on according to 1 Corinthians 7 and Ephesians 5: 21-33 as well as many other scriptures dealing with the perversions of sex. The public schools will teach them the basics of sex education but with the slant of whatever is prevalent in society at the time. For example, right now there is a big push to have all public schools teach that homosexuality is normal and should be accepted. We know that the Bible teaches exactly the opposite with very pointed scriptures like Romans 1: 24-28 and Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13. The public schools will not teach abstinence but rather will pass out condoms to these kids. That is not what is going to create a morally responsible society. There can be no morals taught to our kids when they refuse to allow the moral guide in the schools which is our Bible. It is each parent's responsibility, did you hear that RESPONSIBILITY not option, to teach their children about not only sex, but drugs and everything else. Parents for too long have dumped their responsibilities on the school system and churches and as a result we have a rebellious generation. Sorry, didn't mean to go into a sermon but I hope that this answers you question. Adam

Subj: Theophostic Ministry article

Date: 2/15/02 3:57:50 AM Central Standard Time

From: sporter@iway.na (Shane Porter)

To: adb4jesus@aol.com

Dear Co-labourer in Christ,

I wanted to tell you that I am grieved that you carried an article by Jim Searcy against theophostic ministry. I am working with Youth for Christ International Africa and have been so blessed by theophostic ministry for myself personally and for many African brothers and sisters whom Jesus has set free from horrible traumas and demonization. I would ask you to watch the basic training videos and you will find that Dr. Ed Smith is very sound doctrinally and is one of the most Christ centered counsellors I have ever encountered. He strives to be Biblical in all that he does, thus it grieves me to see him attacked like this as some sort of psychologist. He holds a PhD in theology from a conservative Baptist Seminary, and is first and foremost a pastoral counselor and a man of God. His theophostic ministry is actually an attempt to get Christian counselors to turn away from secular techniques and look to Jesus for healing. I hope that you will allow the Lord to show you whether theophostics is truly from him. Receiving theophostic ministry has deepened my love for my Lord and made me so aware of His love for me. I long only to serve Him and share with others the love of Jesus. My husband will tell you that theophostics has made me a much more godly, loving, sane wife!

Thank you for reading this. I pray that the Lord will show us both what is right before Him.

Under His Infinite Mercy, Barbara Porter

Subj: Re: Theophostic Ministry article

Date: 2/15/02 10:08:53 AM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: sporter@iway.na

Hello Barbara,

Thank you for your letter and it is great that you are working with Youth for Christ. I can understand your position on Theophostics but unfortunately I cannot share the same enthusiasm about it. I have some friends that are involved in it and have been for years. From the very first time I heard of it from them I was very uneasy about the concept. The research that is on my site is not all that I know about this belief but it was what I felt best described my thoughts on the matter. It seems that in the Christian world today there is a burning desire for anything new that will give someone or some group the edge on how to market God. Like the Jabez phenomenon and many others. Unfortunately there are no gimmicks nor methods that will work if they are not supported by the Scriptures. There is absolutely NO Biblical support for the teaching of Theophostics, it is simply another gimmick that is being used under the guise of godly intentions. When Jesus was confronted with those that needed to be delivered by demons I do not recall Him asking the person to lie down and recount all the things in his or her past. I do not recall Him ever "counseling" with them to determine if the demon had reason to be there from some past experience. He simply used the power of His name which is available for us today and is the only prescribed way that He taught. There is not one place in Mark 16: 15-18, where Jesus instructed His followers to tell them to lie down and recount everything in their past! I confronted a "so-called" pastor that had been working with a woman for 2 1/2 years on getting the demons out of her. That's right, 2 1/2 years! That is a slap in the face of the power of God that He has granted to us as ambassadors of His name. In the same way it is a slap in the face to use any other type of tactics than that which we're commanded by Jesus Himself. The simplicity of the Gospel is a wonderful thing but it is when "MEN" get their hands into it that it becomes what we see today. I know that 2 Corinthians 5:17 tells me that when I came to Christ that ALL things became new and the OLD things passed away. There were no exceptions in that verse, there was no clause in there for Theophostics counseling to further cleanse me. I don't doubt that Dr. Smith may have had good intentions, but good intentions does not make anything scripturally sound nor right. You are giving credit to Theophostics for what you consider your betterment instead of God who deserves all credit. You will never be able to show me a scripture that supports "counseling" a demon out of someone. You will never be able to show me where "counseling" has more credibility than simply spending time in prayer and the Word. The Gospel is what changes people's lives not a gimmick in the guise of counseling. Simply the WORD of God. Thanks for your letter. Sincerely in Christ, Adam

Subj: SALVATION

Date: 2/21/02 8:09:58 AM Central Standard Time

From: bttcbr6@hotmail.com (Tami Carter)

To: adb4jesus@aol.com

Subj: Re: SALVATION

Date: 2/21/02 9:52:21 AM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: tami_20002001@yahoo.com

Hello Tami,

Thank you for your question and for the comments. I do believe I covered the salvation process in the pages I have: "The Salvation Message," "The Story of the Three Crosses," and "Why do Jews need Salvation." I used various scriptures that I felt covered the message of Salvation and yes, there are many more that could be used. I agree with most of what you said, especially about spending time in the Word and Prayer each day and that is in "The Salvation Message." I also have many pages in "Adam's Stuff" that are strong indicators that Salvation is a "DAILY" issue and not a one time quote. I did however leave Acts 2:38 our purposely because I know that it is associated with the very doctrine that you are passionately advocating in your email to me. However I cannot agree with that doctrine and if you read the page I have on the site under "Doctrinal" called "Do You Have to Speak in Tongues to be Saved" you will see what I believe about that teaching. I have no doubt that people that believe this teaching are sincere, but I do not believe that the teaching agrees with scriptures. I do totally believe in the Gifts of the Spirit and believe that they are very much needed and active today. I do not however, find in scriptures where it is right to exalt one above any other. Thanks again for your email and if I have misunderstood anything please let me know. In Christ, Adam

Subj: Eternal Security?

Date: 3/4/02 10:03:43 AM Central Standard Time

From: GSEKJV

To: ADB4JESUS

Hello.

It is my understanding, that your view point is not eternal security, once you are born again. I know the verses you have refferred to concerning the possibility of losing one's salvation. Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Now, if someone can do something to lose their salvation, (once they are truly born again), then someone else can do something to keep their salvation. At this point, it ceases to be a Grace and Grace alone salvation, and becomes a works salvation. You of course are entitled to your point of view. However, we do use the bible as our authority, and while I do not ignore the scriptures you sent, we must rightly divide them.

Romans 11:6 " And if by Grace, then is it no more of works, otherwise, grace is no more grace. But, if it be of works, then is it no more of grace, otherwise work is no more work.: The bible clearly tells us that we are saved by the Mercy, Grace, and faith in Jesus Christ, and justified by his shed blood, and that alone. Titus 3:5,6 " Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost, which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour." Ephesians 2:8,9 For by Grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyman should boast." We can go on and on, this is not based on just a few scriptures as suggested. Romans 3:27-28 Where is boasting then? It is excluded, By what law? of works? Nay, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the law." Romans 4:4,5 " Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Galatians 2:16, "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of JESUS CHRIST, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law, for by the works of the law, shall no flesh be justified. " Our Saviour is Jesus Christ, his blood, his Grace, his Mercy. If these verses are true, and these are just a VERY few to confirm eternal security if we are in Jesus Christ, then we have a problem, if what you tell us is true.

Now, if those verses I have sent are true, then if we can lose our salvation, based on what we do, then the bible is wrong. Then it HAS to be a works salvation. So then, we must rightly divide the truth. For all of us are already condemned without Jesus Christ, and if salavation is dependant on the works we do or don't do after recieveing the Lord Jesus Christ into our hearts, then His blood is not sufficient.

In fact, lets look at one of these verses you say determines we can lose our salvation. Mattew 7:21-23. What are these folks pointing to. Are they pointing to their faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (it is Him that justifieth the ungodly.) Are they pointing to his mercy, his grace, total dependance upon him? Nay, rather they are pointing to themselves. Look what we have done Lord, WE have prophesized, WE have cast out devils, WE have done many wonderful works, and WE have done them in your name. (not by works of righteousness.) This is why they will not make it. We are totally dependant upon our Saviour and Lord, Jesus Christ the righteous. Are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

We must remember that Judas also did many wonderful works, enough so as the other disciples did not know he was the one to betray Jesus. Did Judas lose his salvation? Well, if he did, then why did Jesus say that he was a devil from the beginning? Those true believers in our Lord Jesus Christ, the true born again believers, will be chastened by the Lord. Romans 6:1, What shall we say then, shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. We are under grace, but that does not give us a liscense to sin.

We can point to MANY, MANY, MANY more scriptures to show us the eternal security, in Jesus Christ is a fact, and we must rightly divide the word of truth. However, if we can lose our salvation, then the bible is nothing but a contradiction of itself, and not worth the paper it is printed on. I am persuaded though, that the bible is the Word of God, and that it is true, and will agree with itself. I will rely upon the blood of Jesus Christ, and have faith that He that has begun a good work in me, shall perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. I will rely upon HIS grace and mercy. Thank you for your time, of course, you are entitled to your opinion. However, the Word of God is greator.

In Our Lord Jesus Christ.....

Gary Elder

Subj: Re: Eternal Security?

Date: 3/5/02 10:51:45 AM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: GSEKJV

Hello Gary,

Thank you for your email and for the lengthy discussion of what you believe to be the truth. I have heard all those arguments before and seen all the scriptures you provided used in those arguments. You, as all the others that use this argument cannot see that you are confusing "Obedience" with "Works." There is a vast difference and you will never find anywhere in my teaching that I advocate "works." On the contrary if you read any of it at all you will find that every implication is placed on "Obedience." Aside from this point you have also done as everyone else has done and that is to avoid doing what I asked in my page. I asked that anyone that chose to argue the point simply show me how those scriptures do NOT say what I have indicated that they do. The reason that you have not done this nor anyone else is because the truth is too evident in the scriptures. The Eternal Security doctrine has done more harm to the Christian community than any other doctrine introduced. It gives a false impression and leads to weak and lukewarm Christians that are comfortable being that way because they feel they can never lose that salvation. If anything the argument that has been waged against my belief stands more true of the Eternal Security belief than anything else. That argument that it cheapens Grace! Grace is cheapened to the maximum when you give false implications to Christians that Obedience is optional because you could never lose it anyway.

Gary, are you going to be the first to tell me that the Virgins in Matthew 25 were not virgins to start with? Are you going to be the first to tell me that they did not have the "Oil" to start with? Are you going to be the first to tell me that their lights were not burning to start with? Read Matthew 21: 28-32, which son was the one that did the father's will? Was it about the "WORK" in the vineyard or was it because of the "OBEDIENCE" that caused him to be accepted? In Matthew 13 the Sower and the Seed are you going to be the first to tell me that the seed was not "RECEIVED?" Are you going to tell me that they did not really accept the "SEED" when the Bible says that they did? It was lack of "OBEDIENCE" not "WORK" that caused the seed to be unfruitful in each case that it wasn't, not WORKS! I could list an abundance of scriptures that indicate the same thing and have done so on my site. You have not done anything to disprove one of the scriptures but only say that I am basing my belief on Works. I tell you that "WORKS" has nothing to do with it, but if you are OBEDIENT the works will be there. It is a convenient doctrine to teach that a person never has to worry about their salvation because it can never be lost. I will agree to one point that the Eternal Security belief uses and that is that NO MAN can take it from you. You forfeit it by disobedience. I have a question for you Gary. Why did Saul lose his Kingship? Was it because he failed to "WORK" like he was supposed to or was it because he failed to "OBEY?" What happened to Saul after he lost his Kingship? Did he get closer to God? Or did he start turning to the world for his answers and subsequently die in his sins? Was the end result due to lack of WORK or OBEDIENCE? 1 Samuel 15:22 says that Saul was told that OBEDIENCE was better than sacrifice.

Gary I hope that you get the point and I also encourage you to read the response to the Eternal Security page and see the response to another man that brought the same arguments as you have. I encourage you to put aside your doctrinal biases and look at what the Word says. I look forward to hearing from you again, in Christ, Adam

Subj: (no subject)

Date: 3/5/02 1:30:08 PM Central Standard Time

From: GSEKJV

To: ADB4JESUS

Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee. Boast not thyself of tomorrow. Today is the day of salvation.

There were ten men who went to a church. The old preacher was preaching that all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. He was preaching that all are lost and on their way to hell, for eternity, because of the guilt of our sins. He preached about the Lord Jesus Christ, coming to earth, God manifest in the Flesh, who lived a perfect sinless life. He preached that he shed his blood on Calvary's tree. He was and is a risen Saviour. He preached that Jesus Christ is our passover Lamb, that Jesus is the Way, the truth, and the life, and that no man cometh unto the Father, but by Jesus Christ. That humbling ourselves, admitting our guilt, and sincerly asking Jesus Christ to come into our hearts, and be our Saviour, knowing that we are condemned already without the Son. That all of our righteousness are dirty rags, and that we are in need of God's mercy, manifested in the Lord Jesus Christ, God the Son. He preached that there is no other name given amoung men, whereby we must be saved. He pleaded for their very souls to come to the Saviour, Jesus Christ. Five men, pricked at their heart, convicted of sin, of guilt, of shame, wasted no time further, and asked Jesus Christ to be their Saviour. Today is the day of salvation. The other five were also convicted of sin, knew they needed Jesus Christ in their lives. However, they took a different route. They knew they needed Jesus Christ, a Saviour, that they were lost without hope. But, they thought they had plenty of time. I will ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness the next time I come to church, thought one. I will ask for forgiveness when I am a little older, thought another, what would my friends think thought another, and so it went with them. They all thought they had plenty of time.....but in an hour when thou thinkest not.......that night, all ten men died. This night, thy soul shall be required of thee. Five, who did not put it off, recieved Jesus Christ into their hearts. Well done, thou good and faithful servant. ( Remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom, ....Verily I say unto thee, TODAY, thou shalt be with me in paradise.) The other five, heard these terrible, awful words, Depart from me ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. ( Ten virgins.....hmmmm.....) And what shall ye do with Jesus who is called Christ?

I am more than happy to answer, and not ignore, ANY and all scripture.....we must rightly divide the word of Truth.....is our salvation dependant upon ourselves? Or do we depend upon Jesus who is called Christ? This is your descision of course.....and this is His commandment, that we believe on the name of his Son, Jesus Christ..........take care........in the love, and the name of our Saviour, saved by his blood.....Gary.

Subj: Re: (no subject)

Date: 3/5/02 4:13:29 PM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: GSEKJV

Gary,

Thanks again for your lengthy reply and to your surprise I am sure I agree with everything you have written. I agree that today is the day of salvation and I agree that there are some that will accept and some that will not. I still see how this is relative to the discussion of whether or not it can be lost. I still have not seen you show me that any of the scriptures I listed does not indicate what they say. Your stories are nice and they are heartwarming but the scriptures cut through the sentiments and speak the truth. Please don't misunderstand me, I am not angry at you or anyone that might believe this doctrine, I am angry at the doctrine itself and what it has and continues to do.

In Psalm 51:11 David knew that it was not something to take lightly and just assume that God would not take away His spirit. How could that possibly happen to an eternally secure person? The Bible is very clear about this and as I said before if you show me that the scriptures I listed do not say what I indicated then I will remove them. You know as well as I do that it is impossible to intelligibly say that those scriptures do not say those things. The truth is, you have been indoctrinated by this teaching and have never opened your mind to search the scriptures yourself and see if that teaching is true. Again I encourage you to read the following that was previously sent to me by another brother that believes your teaching.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/psalm12606/ResponsestotheEternalSecurityPage1.htm

Gary, we can obviously argue endlessly about whether or not the other is accurate or not. The only answer must be derived from the Bible and I again encourage you for the 5th time to take the scriptures I have listed in my previous email and on my page and show me how they do NOT say what I have indicated. In Christ, Adam

Subj: Re: (no subject)

Date: 3/6/02 3:12:12 AM Central Standard Time

From: GSEKJV

To: ADB4JESUS

Sir, thank you for your response as well. First, I will answer each and every one of your arguements in due time, although this is not feasable for me to do in a single email, you must agree. First, you tell me my stories are nice and heart warming. Gee, thanks. What I did, sir, was give you an alternative meaning, alternative to yours, for the parable of the ten virgins. ( Boy, Jesus, what a nice heartwarming parable you just told.) God forbid we should ever take that attitude when reading the parables (which are stories) told by our Lord Jesus Christ. If you intend to challenge the biblical fact of eternal security, which is your right, you must do something also. What you accuse us of, sir, is exactly what you are doing. We give you , and I will be happy to send the scripture references again to you, many verses that do indicate eternal security. I will answer each and everyone of your arguements, but tell me that the verses we send don't mean what they say they do. What you have done is exactly what you say we do, skipping over them, in favor of your own doctrine, warned by us in the book of Galations by the apostle Paul. Now, if you are patient, I will answer each and everyone of your scripture references, taking the scripture as a whole, and in it's proper context, which you say I cannot do. I just did for one of your examples, the ten virgins. Which is what I believe the scripture to be saying in that particular passage. I will address each and EVERY one, albeit not all at once. I have no need to fear the scriptures, the Holy Spirit is my teacher, through his word, which is quick and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword. Now, be patient, sir, and might I encourage you to listen as well. Thank you....G

Subj: Re: (no subject)

Date: 3/8/02 9:10:02 PM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: GSEKJV

Hello Gary,

Thank you for your response and I have been busy and not able to get to my email for a few days. I see that you have sent several along with this one though and I look forward to reading them and responding. As for this one I hope that this is not the extent of your supposed proof for the Ten Virgins. If so, then as I indicated you have not answered any of the questions I posed. I will save the remaining remarks for the rest of your emails. Thanks again and look forward to sharing the truth with you. In Christ, Adam

Subj: The Parable of the Sower..more to come....

Date: 3/6/02 9:33:22 AM Central Standard Time

From: GSEKJV

To: ADB4JESUS

Romans 2:28 But he is a jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God. When a person is truly born again, he is circumcised in his heart, it is an inward change. Matthew 13:18-23 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart, This is he which recieved the word by the wayside. But he that recieved the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy recieveth it, Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a little while,for when tribulation or persecution ariseth, because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that recieved the seed among thorns is he that heareth the word, and the care of this world, and the decietfulness of riches choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that recieved seed on the good ground, is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it, which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundred fold, some sixty, some thirty.

Let us look at this parable in greator depth and get into specifics shall we?

Vs.19, we all have witnessed, or at least heard of those who simply reject the word of God, have we not? These are those of whom this verse is speaking. Is there any arguement there? I should think not at least.

Vs. 20-21. The seed that fell on stoney ground, of course we know that the ground is the heart of men, and the seed the word of God. We often see a preacher, well trained in the art of inducing emotional responses from people, give an invitation. He may have just preached a sermon that gave the full gospel of Christ, and planted these seeds. There are those who will go forward, and profess salvation and belief in Christ. They do endure a little while. They "do" all the right things. However, by and by, we see these people go back to the world. This is easy beliefism that is prevalent, and on that point, we are probably in agreement. However, what does this verse 21 say? He hath no root in himself. The seed never took, because it had nothing to hold it there. A seed needs ground to grow. Any farmer can tell you that. The seed never took though, because there was no root, the ground being the heart. Circumcision was not of the heart, but only emotional, or intellectual, but not an inward rebirth. So this person, without the root to hold the growth in place, never really took. I have seen this many times.

Now then, let us look at the seed recieved in stoney places. The care of this world and the decietfullness of riches choke out the word, which is the seed. Why does not this plant grow? Because it is choked out. Now, you can make the arguement that this person was saved, and lost his salvation. However, another scripture comes to mind when we read this verse. Some also by the way, say that this person is a carnal christian, which I will address in a later email. There was a rich young ruler who was seeking salvation, and he went to Jesus to inquire of him. (Matt. 19:16-24) Assuming you know the account, Jesus tells him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor. and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possesions. You see, this man did not have the proper heart towards God, his heart was not good ground. Circumcision is that of the heart. God is talking about sowing the seed, which is the word of God, into the heart, which is the ground. It is a heart change Jesus Christ is after, recieving Jesus Christ into the heart, and changing the inward man. This ground was not good.

However, let us look at the last verse, The good ground is that heart which Truly surrenders itself to Jesus Christ. When this happens, we can sing a brand new song "Amazing Grace", because Jesus Christ has paid our debt. This person will bear fruit, however, does this person bear fruit of his own obediance? Certainly, obediance is what God wants of us all, and if men had been obediant in the first place, there would have been no need of a Saviour. If we were obediant to God, then we could keep the law of Moses to God's satisfaction, for when we fail, we are sinners, except for the righteousness of Christ. Now, what causes this person to bear fruit? Let us look at another scripture. Let's look at John 15, which I will address in another email, for a moment. John 15:4-5 abide in me, and i in you, As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,except it abide in the vine, no more CAN YE, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches, He that abideth in me and i in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit, for without me, ye can do nothing. If a person truly is born again, he will bear fruit, for Jesus Christ shall abide in him. Let us look at still another scripture. Jesus says, in Matthew 7: 17-18, Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, but a corrupt tree, bringeth forth evil fruit. A GOOD TREE CANNOT BRING FORTH EVIL FRUIT, NEITHER CAN A CORRUPT TREE BRING FORTH GOOD FRUIT............. Jesus said that a good tree cannot, cannot bring forth evil fruit, and an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Therefore if one is truly circumcised of the heart, and is born again on the inside, a heart change, Jesus says that it cannot bring forth evil fruit. Not only that, Jesus says that it wil bring forth fruit. A true born again Christian will bear some type of good fruit. Now, if someone claims to be born again, let us look at the parable of the sower, and decide from their. I realize of course that you do not agree, and I understand your point of view..... However, my explanation is every bit as possible to be true as yours, and not only that, will in fact strengthen eternal security, once TRULY circumcised of the heart. Now, don't get impatient, sir, I will address ALL of the scripture references you give, EVERY one, but to address everyone is simply not possible in a single email, nor do I have the time to address every one at one time. Thank you again......in our Lord Jesus Christ....Gary

Subj: Re: The Parable of the Sower..more to come....

Date: 3/8/02 9:57:21 PM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: GSEKJV

Gary,

Again this response is exactly what I expected and obviously you did not read the response on the Eternal Security page because I covered most of these issue there. Your argument on the parable of the sower of course would follow the lines that is consistent with your belief. That of course being the argument that these first three people were obviously not saved to start with. That is always the easy answer for this belief when they cannot find a way to get around a scripture. The Bible says that they "RECEIVED" the seed but that the results were not the same. It does not say that the first three did not "RECEIVE" the seed but "only pretended to" does it? It is very "Spiritual" of the Eternal Security believers to have this special insight that they know the intentions of man's hearts when that right is reserved for God alone. It is amazing that they have the unique spiritual capability to not only have this insight but to "KNOW" that they were never saved to start with. I must confess that it should be a humbling experience for me to be able to discuss an issue such as this with someone of such superior insight to the "spiritual" awareness of all men. Unfortunately I rely on the simple truth of what the scriptures say regardless if they agree with Calvin or not.

I find it quite interesting that the first person in question is said to have the seed "SOWN IN HIS HEART." It is very easy to understand your view though that this seed was only "PROFESSED" to be sown, it really wasn't. I am glad that you pointed that scriptural error out to me.

I find it quite interesting also that the other two situations were planted but were "choked by the cares of the world" and "persecution." Actually that agrees more with my view than yours. Oh, silly me, I forgot, these seeds were only "Pretending" to be planted! I fail to see your involvement of the Rich Young Ruler because it is totally irrelevant to this issue.

I am not surprised that you bring up John 15 although I have covered that on the web page and in the response page. However you brought it up so I will respond to that also. I cannot see how the use of this scripture needs to go any further than Vs. 2: Where were these branches in question? "IN HIM" of course your argument will be that they were only "PROFESSING" to be "In Him" right?

On to Matthew 7, you bring up the Good Tree and Bad Tree example. You make the statement that "Therefore if one is truly circumcised of the heart, and is born again on the inside, a heart change, Jesus says that it cannot bring forth evil fruit." I have but one question for you Gary. Have you ever sinned since you were born again? Is that not bad fruit? Are you still saved? Were you saved to start with? Ok, four questions! Point is, you will sin after being saved and therefore you will bear bad fruit from time to time. The point of this verse is about continuos production of that particular fruit.

I look forward to the rest of your emails. In Christ, Adam

Subj: Revelation 3:5-6

Date: 3/6/02 10:59:50 AM Central Standard Time

From: GSEKJV

To: ADB4JESUS

A Tare....Darnel: a weed of which some varieties are poisonous. It looks much like wheat, until the near end of the harvest, when the two can be easily distinguished.

Matthew 13:37-40 He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man, the field is the world, the good seed are the children of the kingdom, but the tares are the children of the wicked one. The enemy that soweth them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of this world.

There are many, many tares in the wheat feilds today. Many are professing christians, who look like the real thing, but we shall know them in the end. With this in mind, let us look at Revelation 3:5-6 shall we? Now, just who should it be that shall overcome? I beleive with all my heart, that he that has begun a good work in me, he shall perform it until the day of the Lord. Those that overcome shall be the true believers in Christ. The truly born again. Upon examination, this scripture does not say in Revelaton 3, that he will blot out the names of the born again who have lived a carnal life. It does not say that, saving we add it to this scripture. I submit to you, that this is a promise from our God, the Creator, through His Son Jesus Christ, that we have security in him. It is a promise, that He will NOT blot out our names from the book of life. Let us also look at another verse in chapter 3. Why would Jesus be calling upon these people to repent? If these people have fallen away, it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them again unto repentance is it not? Could it not be a calling to return unto the true gospel of Jesus Christ? Remember the parable of the tares......The true believers in Christ shall not be blotted out....not the easy beliefismers......mind you, but the truly born again.

Let us look then to the old testament. Exodus 32:32-33 Yet now, of thou wilt forgive their sin, and if not, blot me I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

The bible says, that all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God, that there is none righteous, no not one. As I sit here, I wonder, is Moses in heaven? Surely not, because if we recall, he sinned against God, and God would not allow Moses into the promised Land. According to this verse, then, God must have blotted Moses out of the book of Life. The same with Samson, or Jonah, or even Peter. We are all under the penalty of sin already. If he were to blot all who have sinned against him, there would not be a one of us written in that book, and for him to blot us out, surely we must have been in that book to begin with, no? Based on your own words? Remember now, if these people simply fell away, and then repented again, we have a major conflict within the very scritpure you quote, Hebrews 6:4-6, says that it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them again unto repentance, does it not? What about David, was not David the same David who killed Goliath, because he dared go against God? Did not this same David kill a man to have the man's wife for his own? Surely, God must have blotted his name out of the book, for it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them again unto repentance. Now, keep in mind, if you choose to use old testament figures as examples, which you have, then don't give me the arguement that Jesus Christ had not come yet, because in so doing, you must not use the old testament to further your point either. I wonder, is Adam and Eve in heaven? Surely not, for if anyone had tasted of the heavenly gift, would not it have been them? Circumcision my friend, must be of the heart. So I rejoice, when my God tells me he shall not blot out my name out of the book of life, because of the gift of eternal life, promised us through belief in His Son, Jesus Christ, who is our advocate, our Redeemer, our Saviour. I will surely address more of your points soon. In Christ.....Gary

Subj: Re: Revelation 3:5-6

Date: 3/8/02 10:23:15 PM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: GSEKJV

Gary,

You following arguments only prove that you have not read my pages at all because I have covered all of the things you listed, David, Moses, and the rest. Again, since you brought it up I will respond. What about David? You tell me what would have happened to David had he not "repented" when approached by Nathan? You tell me how that Moses, obviously "Knowing" that his name was in the book could be blotted out? You tell me what would have happened to the Prodigal Son had he not returned to the Father? Of course knowing that you have this vast insight into the souls of man that you can determine that they were not serious to start with is a silly question. What about King Saul? Where did he end up?

You fall back on the same old argument that all your cohorts do that one sin dooms a person. You again have failed to read the conclusion of my page or you would have seen my response to that. I am getting tired of repeating what I have already printed plainly. I am sorry sir but you are the one twisting scriptures and meanings to this point and might I add not very persuasively.

Look forward to the next one. IN Christ, Adam

Subj: 1 Cor. 10:1-15

Date: 3/7/02 9:24:04 AM Central Standard Time

From: GSEKJV

To: ADB4JESUS

Hebrews 12:6-8 For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he revietheth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? BUT IF YE BE WITHOUT CHASTISEMENT, WHEREOF WE ARE ALL PARTAKERS, THEN YE ARE BASTARDS, AND NOT SONS.

When a person is born again, does he know the scriptures fully? Does He know what the bible says? He may know some, but is in need of instruction, no? Just as a child is in need of direction from his parents, so is it with the regenerate man, the newly born again. The babe in Christ. For those of us who are worried that christians feel like they just have a liscense to sin, God will chasten his own. He may let them go their own way for awhile, and often does, but, he will chasten those that are his own, the bible makes this very clear. To the person who claims to be born again, and goes out and sins at will, and shows no fruits of the spirit, and has no chastening of the Lord, is that person what he claims to be? I should think not.

With these things in mind, let us look at 1 Corinthians 10:1-15. Before we go there however, we must keep in mind, that the Lord will chasten his own. Also, we must remember to take the scripture as a whole, and study to show ourselves approved unto God. We must remember, and must not forget, what Paul has written earlier in 1 Corinthians. Chapter 3 of this book, vs. 1-4, speaking to whom? to the brethren, as we will see. And I brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat, for hitherto ye were not able ti bear it. neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal, for whereas there is among you envying and strife, and divisions, are ye yet carnal, and walk as men? For while on saith, I am of Paul, and another, I am of Apolos, are ye yet carnal. Paul is speaking to the BRETHREN here, is he not?

Now, let us look at chapter 3, picking things up at verse 11 and through 15. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST. now if any man build on this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble, Every man's work shall be made manifest, for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire, and th fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, ( the foundation of JESUS CHRIST!) he shall recieve a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss, but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED, YET SO AS BY FIRE. Please, you tell me what the apostle Paul is saying here.

Now, keeping in mind this chapter in the 1 letter to the Corinthians, let us turn to chapter 10 now. I shall not print it, for you know what it says, and if you need a refresher, to check it out, get your King James out. Look at verse 4 for a moment if you would. Is he not giving Israel as an example of what not to do? He is, however, how then, if it be Israel, should he write, that Rock was Christ? Has Christ, Messiah yet come unto the Israelites at this time? Just what is He reffering to? For one, it gives credibiltiy to the fact that Jesus Christ is the Ancient of days, from Everlasting, the great I Am. Study that verse, and tell me what He is saying here. Now, read these verses again, and tell me where it says, that God is going to take away our salvation. Do so, please, without adding it to the verses. Does he say, he will destroy us? As you say? It says, this is what happened to them. Now, if Paul is saying here, that our salvation is going to be taken away, then explain to me please, chapter 3. We must remember, that the Lord will chasten his own, as it is written. Was not, upon further review, God chastening Israel? Yes, he was, so then, did He give Israel a liscense to sin, because they were his chosen? Neither does he give us a liscense to sin, because we are under his grace. ( Romans ch.6) He will chasten us. With these things in mind, not forgetting to take the whole of the scipture, let us then look at verse 12. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed, lest he fall.

God will chasten those he loves. There will be consequences, if we choose to sin, if we are not dilegent...(yet he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.) I can think of two,(actually many more, but two for now) examples of christians who did not take heed, or did not way the reality of whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reep. One man was a preacher. A very strong preacher who was doing a good work. He however, in a moment of weekness, made a "pass" so to speak, in the direction of a young, very pretty, and very married young lady. This man, by this moment of weekness, lost everything. He lost his church, he could no longer preach at this church, for this sin surely found him out. All the labor he put into building this church, creating by the grace of God, lost in a moment. He did not take heed, and he fell. This woman, no longer attends church, divorced her husband, married another, and is very turned off by church. Think we not, that this man shall not answer for this? The flock is scattered, and the church in ruins today. This man fell. However, I know this man, and feel compassion for him. He had a VERY repentive heart, and was anquished in his soul for what he had done, not unlike David, of whom you use as an example. I believe with all my heart, this man is SAVED, by the same blood he always was, and did not lose his salvation. Yet, he did not take heed, and he fell, and he fell hard. Now, tell me, please, the disgrace this man suffered, the loss he suffered, the damage it did to his family, tell me please, did not God deal with this man? Did God let him get away with anything, as you seem to be so worried about? Of course not.

Another example of a man, a christian, who worked at a bible camp with me this past summer. He was a born again christian, and STILL is. However, this man, although in his late 30's, married, with two children, also fell. He made a pass for a very young girl (late teens). He did not touch her, nor did he "do" anything. What he did, was say some VERY suggestive things to her. This of course was found out, and he lost his fulltime position at the camp, his marriage was put in jeopardy as his wife was devestated, the damage it did to the reputation of the camp, the damage it did to his children, all very real. God gave his a way out, as in verse 13. but he did not take it. Now then, I know the man personally, had many good talks with him, I believe, without a doubt, this man is saved, his desire continues to be to serve the Lord. However, it will take years for him to recover. Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Please, tell me in this case as well, that this man did not have to endure the chastening of the Lord. He made a terrible mistake, that cost him plenty of loss. Tell me though, that he himself shall not be saved, yet so as by fire. Tell me please, he lost his salvation, for if he did, it is IMPOSSIBLE the bible says, to renew him again unto repentance.

Thank you again for your time, I will indeed answer each and EVERY one of your references if you continue to be patient, and wait for the responses. We must study the word of God, and God HAS called us to walk, even as He walked, but remember please, circumcision is that of the heart, and this determines our salvation, if we have recieved Jesus Christ, into our hearts, or if we have rejected him, Our God looketh at the hearts of men, sir. Thank you again, and I do understand where you are coming from, as I understand the teaching of the Assembly of God churches quite well. I understand, you have come out of that denomination, which I applaud. If I am mistaken on this account, I apologize sincerely from my heart. in our Lord Jesus Christ....Gary

Subj: Re: 1 Cor. 10:1-15

Date: 3/8/02 10:54:47 PM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: GSEKJV

Gary,

I have never said in one place, page, teaching, or anything that I do not agree that God will chasten those whom He loves. To do so would be to disbelieve scripture, however you once again are twisting the very scriptures that you choose not to answer the very direct questions I provided. I will do you a favor, I will provide those very pointed questions again right now so you are not confused and go off on these tangents that are not related. Regarding 1 Corinthians 10: 1-15 here are the points I made on my page which you did NOT address in your email:

Vs. 1 - Paul is clearly speaking to "brethren"

Vs. 2 - Paul says that they were " All baptized", not unbelievers

Vs. 3 - They "All" ate of the "spiritual meat", not unbelievers

Vs. 4 - They "All" drank of the "spiritual drink", which was "Christ", not unbelievers

Vs. 5 - They were "overthrown"

Vs. 6 - They were "examples" that God’s people can lust after "evil things" to the point of their destruction

Vs. 7 - It is possible for "US" to become "idolaters"

Vs. 8 - It is possible for "US" to commit "fornication"

Vs. 9 - We are told that if "WE" put the Lord to the test He will destroy us

Vs.11 - Again we are told that this is an "example" for us to heed

Vs.12 - We are told that "WE" can fall

Vs.13 - God will give us a way out of sin, but "WE" must take that way out, He will not force us out of the situation

Vs.14 - We are again admonished to "flee from idolatry", why if we can not lose anything?

If we look at these verses in the perspective that you cannot lose your salvation, then there are some glaring questions that need to be asked; for example, Why would this be given as an example and stressed that it is an example twice for "brethren" if it were not possible for the things described to happen? Why, speaking to "brethren" does Paul say that we can fall? How can this section of Scripture be explained away as not speaking to the church, then WHO?

I am sorry Gary but this scripture is using Israel as an example to show "US" what is possible in our lives if we allow it. He stresses that it is an example to us and that we are susceptible to these very things. Your reasoning that it applied to Israel and not us is ridiculous. You examples about your friends is nice but does not illustrate that the opposite could not have happened if they had chose to say in their situation. According to your reasoning, God will not allow you to stay in that state even if you choose to. So according to your thinking, a person that is in your mind "truly born-again" will have no choice to remain that way but is forced to. Because if they do stray away, God will force them to return, boy that does not agree with the Prodigal Son! He Chose to come back! David chose to come back, Peter chose to come back, you have yet to answer the question of what happens to them if they did not? Of course your easy way out of that is to say one of two things; They either were not saved to start with or they would come back because they were truly born again. What a convenient doctrine! I also fail to see your connection with those in 1 Corinthians 3 that are "saved, yet so as by fire" with whether or not you could lose your salvation. They were saved and had no rewards to show for their Christian walk, does that validate either side?

Lastly regarding this email, I did not come out of the Assembly of God church and that only proves that you have not read my pages. You are really starting to frustrate me with having to reiterate what is already on my page and your statements that prove you are not reading them. It is obvious that you are ingrained with this doctrine and that is your prerogative I am not out to persuade you, only to present the truth of the Word. You approached me, remember, you need to read what I have already written before running in circles. IN Christ, Adam

Subj: Hebrews 10:26-29

Date: 3/7/02 11:34:55 AM Central Standard Time

From: GSEKJV

To: ADB4JESUS

Romans 7:19-23 For the good that I would do, I do not, but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that which I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find the a law, that when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin.

Let us examine what is being said here. There is a law of sin that dwells in our mortal bodies. This sin is always there present with us. This body is dead, because of it. However, the apostle Paul says, I delight in the law of God after the inward man. Circumcision, is that of the heart, as we have learned earlier. Keeping these verses in mind, let us go to Hebrews 10:26-29.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man. We know what Paul is writing here in Romans, do we not?

Hebrews 10: 26-27...For if we sin willfully, after that we have recieved the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. But a certain fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Surely, the author of Hebrews, some say it is the Apostle Paul, writes here to remind these jews, and yes, to us as well, what happened in the old testament, most likely reffering back to Numbers 15:30. Now then, I ask just what is it to sin willfully? Remember, Paul has written in Romans 7 that there is a law of sin that brings us into captivity, because it dwelleth in our members. So then, just what is a willful sin?

Hebrews 10: 28 He that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses. Circumcision is that of the heart, is it not? For I delight in the law of God after the inward man. Psalms 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God, yea, thy law is within my heart. 2 Cor. 3:3-4.. Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward. Now I put this question to you, we delight, if born again, in the law of God after the inward man. Now, how can such a one despise the law of Moses? One with an unregenerate heart would certainly despise this law of Moses, in the heart, no? Hebrews is driving a point home to us here.

Lets then look at Heb. 10:29 which seems to be so troubleing, and seems to shoot down eternal security. Seems.

Of how much sorer punishment suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the convenant, wherewith he is sanctified, and unholy thing, and hath done despite the unto the Spirit of grace?

How am I ever going to get around this verse? I am not, I accept this verse fully. I do not fear scripture. Let us remember 26-28, that is what happened to those who despised Moses law, they died without mercy. Hebrews does not say, that this is going to happen to the saved man. It really doesn't. It say, suppose what would happen, of a saved person had a change of heart? A definite awful punishment, if this scenario were to occcur. I have no problem with this verse whatsoever, for if this were to happen, I believe such an one would be subject to something unimaginable, as it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. To the truly born again believer, though, one has nothing to be afraid of, for although there is a law in my members warring against the law of my mind, the law of sin, I delight after the law of God after the inward man. I know the rebirth within me that has taken place. You know what, should I ever have a change of heart, I would not want to be me any longer. However, he that has begun a good work in me shall perform it until the day of the Lord. I can't help but have confidence in my Saviour. He will chasten me, nor leave or forsake me. Romans 8: 34-39 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ who that died, yea, rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall seperate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persucutioin, or famine, or nakedness of Peril, or sword? As it is written For thy sake are we killed all the day long, We are counted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay in all these things we are more than conquerers, through him that loved us.( John 3:16?) For I am persuaded that niether death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to seperate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. All of the folks who do not believe that we have security in the Lord Jesus Christ that I have encountered, tell me when confronted by this scripture, yes, all those things cannot seperate you from the Love of Christ, except yourself. Well if I can do that, then I was never truly born again to begin with. Not to mention, that is adding to the scriptures.

In fact, going on a bit further in Hebrews 10, looking at verse 35, the bible tells me Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward.

I Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things, nevertheless, I am not ashamed, FOR I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED, AND AM PERSUADED THAT HE IS ABLE TO KEEP THAT WHICH I HAVE COMMITTED UNTO HIM AGAINST THAT DAY.

I will surely answer more of the scriptures you have mentioned, as soon as I have the time. Thank you....in Christ....Gary

Subj: Re: Hebrews 10:26-29

Date: 3/8/02 11:31:28 PM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: GSEKJV

Gary,

Again you want to confuse the issue by going to Romans 7 and talking about the sinful flesh and circumcision of the heart. Again you did not answer the simple statements I made regarding the scriptures in Hebrews 10 so I will supply them again:

In Vs.26, the writer is including himself in the verse "we," not speaking to lost.

In Vs.29, this person was "sanctified by the blood," not speaking to the lost.

In Vs.30, the Lord is judging who? "HIS People," not speaking to the lost.

I also want to give you some Scriptures that deal with what constitutes a "knowledge of the truth" as indicated in Vs.26; John 8:32, 1Timothy 2:4, & 4:3, 2Timothy 2:25, Titus 1:1, 1John 2:21, and 2John 1, and there are many more.

The facts indicate clearly who is being addressed in this passage. God will not force anyone to serve Him, allowing each of us with our freedom of willful choice to obey and serve His commands. This freedom was clearly demonstrated when a third of the angels in heaven chose to follow Lucifer. We walk away from the gift of God, He does not take it from us. Only God knows when we cross that line, but until then the Spirit will not cease to convict and seek to draw that person back into the fold of God. God is Love, but God is Just also and will not allow you to choose sin and Quench the Spirit (1Thess. 5:19), and still enter heaven.

I have no doubt that a Christian can be kept until that day as you have added that scripture. In fact that is one of the biggest misinterpretations of what I believe. I do not think it is a light thing that a person can lose their salvation. I do not think it is a matter of one simple sin and it is over. I have made that very clear and that is the frustrating part of these discussions with people like you. You have failed to read the pages that I have already provided and you have failed to answer the simple statements I make with each scripture I use. You, as are all like you are very adamant about trying to convince me that I am wrong, yet you never show me the things I ask on the page. Thanks again and on to the next one. IN Christ, Adam

Subj: John 8:31

Date: 3/8/02 7:25:14 AM Central Standard Time

From: GSEKJV

To: ADB4JESUS

John 8:31 Then said Jesus unto those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed.

Before we discuss this verse, let us turn back a a couple of chapters in John, okay? Let's look at John 6: 64-71 But there are some of you that BELIEVE NOT. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that BELIEVED NOT, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of HIS DISCIPLES WENT BACK AND WALKED NO MORE WITH HIM. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the Living God. Jesus answered them, have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon,, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

FACTS....

Jesus knew from the beginning, who it was that did not believe.

many of his disciples, drew back, they are called disciples, and walked no more with him.

Judas was called one of the twelve, whom the Lord had appointed Apostles in other sciptures. He was a devil.

Those that remained with Jesus believed and were sure Jesus was that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Just why did these "disciples" of Jesus draw back? Why did they walk no more with him, did they lose there salvation? It is difficult to lose your salvation, when you never had it to begin with. Let us note, that these "disciples" of Jesus drew back, because they did not truly believe. Jesus KNEW from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and yet, they were following him at the time. It was their unbelief. Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas was a devil, now, please tell me how a devil can be born again? He never was.

Now, looking back, with these things in mind, let us look at John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed. Just what then, is the sign of a true disciple in Jesus Christ? One that continues in his word, such as the ones that remained with Jesus. Where should we go Lord? Thou hast the words of eternal life. This is not the same, my friend, as a carnal christian. Those folks who followed after Jesus, and yet, after he had called their bluff, by saying they did not believe, they did not follow after him any more. And that is because of unbelief. If you do not continue to believe in Jesus Christ, then you never truly believed in the first place.

1 John 2:19 which was also mentioned by those who do not believe the blood of Christ, and that alone is suffiecient for sin, have used this verse, but they forget a very important part of it. They went out from us, but they were not of us, FOR IF THEY HAD been of us, the would NO DOUBT continued with us. but they went out, that they might be made manifest, that they were not all of us.

Do you notice what is being said, here, they were NOT of them, because if they had been, they would no doubt have continued, ( John 8:31) with them.

So John 8:31 does not say someone is going to lose their salvation, but rather indicates a sign of a true believer in Jesus Christ. There is much more to come, as you have other scriptures I have not addressed to this point, it does take time, as we must compare it to other sciptures, because surely the bible will ALWAYS back itself up. Thank you again, in Jesus Christ our Lord.......Gary

Subj: Re: John 8:31

Date: 3/8/02 11:52:36 PM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: GSEKJV

Gary,

It is quite interesting how you go back two chapters and try to use verses out of that text to agree with what you are trying to say about the present verse. First, I agree that a disciple is one that follows Jesus' teachings and that was exactly the point I was making with John 8:31. You are the one trying to tie it to a previous verse to make your point more credible. I also listed other verses along with that verse that you apparently failed to look at. Once again you are on a wild goose chase trying to use the same old argument that a person was never saved to start with. That gets old after a while Gary, try something new.

You are as bad as the catholic people that write me about the catholic page and never stick to the content of my statements on my site.

Gary, it is quite obvious that you know the Bible fairly well and are most definitely blindly indoctrinated by this Calvinistic teaching. That is your choice and I will never try to force you to believe otherwise. However, it is quite fruitless to discuss this any further when you are obviously quite content in your stand I in mine. I honestly don't have time to debate this issue with you when I have made all the points on my site and you refuse to see them. You are free to choose your own path regarding this issue and you obviously have. I am sorry that you refuse to see the simple truth of the Word and instead cling to a doctrine that is man made. I would say that I wish you the best, but that would be pointless since you can do whatever you please and never worry about anything. What a life, I wish I could say that I could follow that line of thinking but would really like to be counted in with the "Wise" virgins. I would also say God bless you, but what bigger blessing could you get than to have free reign in the spiritual world with nothing to lose? IN Christ, Adam

Subj: Sir,

Date: 3/9/02 7:23:49 AM Central Standard Time

From: GSEKJV

To: ADB4JESUS

Sir, there is no point in going on any further. You have challenged people to answer your scripture references, and yet you ignore other scriptures. The bible must be taken as a whole, with study and cross referencing, and it will always agree. I am more than capable of answering each and every one of your references. Just because you do not agree, does not mean it is not so. I have studied this issue through prayer, and intensive study for years. Now, in one night, you simply passover these references. I challenge you, to study these references. You are guilty of the very same thing you accuse others of. You are close minded to anyother doctrine, that does not agree with your own, regardless of what the bible says. Good Wishes to you sir, but, every idle word that men may speak, he shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. So I would be careful, if I were you, when saying that it is impossible to answer in any other way than your interpretation of the scripture. We must Rightly divide the word of truth, through study, just what does that mean anyway? As I said, there is no point in going further, because you are stuck in a false doctrine, and unwilling to study it out, and compare these versed to the whole of the scripture. Thank you again, but again, we must agree, it is pointless to go on further. How can you have answered, and read each letter I sent, so quickly, saving you did not study each one for several hours or days? You could not have. in Christ...Gary

Subj: Re: Sir,

Date: 3/9/02 1:24:25 PM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: GSEKJV

Gary,

In Matthew 25: 1-12 the facts are: Vs. 1 - They are all called "virgins", no where does it say they only claimed to be virgins. They are all going to meet the bridegroom; the lost will not be doing so. Vs. 2 - They are called "foolish" but never said not to be virgins Vs. 7 - Again they "all" go out to meet the bridegroom. NOTICE; in vs. 7-8 that they "ALL" trimmed their lamps and that even the foolish virgin's lamps were lit. They said that they "went out," which is impossible if they were not lit to start with! We know that the "lamp" or "light" represents our witness according to Matt. 5: 14-16.

In Matthew 25:14-30 the following facts: Vs. 14 - They are all called "his own servants" Vs. 18 - He buried "his lord’s money" Vs. 21 - "His Lord" said... Vs. 23 - "His Lord" said... Vs. 24 - The third servant says "I knew thee" Vs. 26 - "His Lord" answered... Also did not say he was not a servant, just a "wicked and slothful" one.

Vs. 27 - The lord still considered that he would have received "his own" which would have been this servant had he obeyed his Lord.

Luke 12: 42-48 the following facts: Vs. 42 - Establishes who is spoken of, "the steward" Vs. 45 - Still speaking of the same servant, that he turns from his ways (voluntarily) Vs. 46 - The lord of "that servant", places him in the category with "unbelievers" Vs. 47 - The servant "knew his lord’s will", but did not "OBEY" it, willingly

It cannot be any clearer than the example that Jesus left with this parable, that a person can know what is the right thing to do and not do it, and pay the penalty later. It is clear that the servant was a faithful servant but turned his back on his lord and the result was to be placed with the unbelievers in the judgment. How can this parable be explained other than the facts of what it says?

John 15: 1-6 the following facts: Vs. 2 - The branch that beareth not fruit is "taken away", NOTICE where the branch is to start with.... "In me." Vs. 6 - The branch that is not producing fruit is cast into the "fire," the entire section is talking about the vine and branches, and it is clear that the branch is "in Christ" and if it does not bear fruit, it will be cast into the fire.

The facts are clear that the branch was "in him" but did not bear fruit and was therefore cast into the "fire."

Romans 11: 16-22 the facts are: Vs. 21 - It is clear that the grafted in ones, if not obedient would not be spared Vs. 22 - It is clear that this grafting in is conditional "if thou continue," and it is also clear that if you do not continue then you will be "cut off." To try to make this say other than it does is twisting the Scripture to make it fit a doctrinal belief. It is very clear cut as the others to this point have been also.

1 Timothy 4: 1-3 the facts are: Vs. 1 - "some shall depart from the faith," how can someone depart from the faith if they were not saved to start with? What are the implications of departing from the faith? Vs. 2 - They have their "conscience seared," they depart from the truth they knew and follow the deceit.

NOTE: If they depart from the "faith" then they have no part of it, which only leaves the alternative.

Hebrews 6: 4-6 the facts are: Vs. 4 - What does it mean that they were "enlightened"? I believe the answer to that is in the rest of the verse. They have "tasted of the heavenly gift," what gift could that be? SALVATION!! The proof of that is in the next statement, they "were made partakers of the Holy Spirit," A lost person cannot partake of the Holy Spirit, you receive the Spirit (become a partaker) when you are saved (Ephesians 1:13).

Vs. 5 - They have "tasted" the Word, and the "powers," can a lost person know what it is to "taste or partake" of the Word? Can a lost person know the "powers" of the Spirit?

1 Corinthians 11: 28-32 the facts are: Vs. 28 - Why would there be a need to "examine" oneself, if there were no chance to lose your salvation?

Vs. 29 - There is no question that Paul is addressing Christian brothers, and he states that they could bring "damnation" upon themselves. How can that be possible?

Vs. 32 - This verse clearly states that the Lord "chastens" us so that "we should not be condemned with the world," where does it say in that verse that we CANNOT be condemned with the world?

Subj: Eternal Security

Hi Adam: I have just finished reading the response 2002, especiall Gary: GSEKJV. In signing your guest book-really didn't have to as we know each other quite well-I mentioned that I would like to respond to Gary's statements.

First, there are many verses of the Bible that address this issue but I would like to use just 2 areas, both from the Book of Hebrews.

1. Hebrews 6:1-6 NIV. "Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death [eternal separation from God] and of faith in god, 2, instuction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment, 3, and God permitting, we will do so."

"4, It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public discrace."

The use of the word loss (v. 6) does not indicate that one has lost, say their car keys, their wallet, etc., but a loss that occurs through actions-a life style-that is described in verses 4 and 5. In essence, this person, although having been born again, has 'forfeited' the salvation they had received "...by grace through faith ..." John 15 describes (in the words of Jesus) that anyone that is a branch in Him and bears no fruit, the Father cuts off. An unbeliever has never been a branch in Christ so there is no cutting off of that person. Therefore, it must pertain to one born again and baptized into the Body of Christ (branches) that is cut off. Once cut off, this person is eternally lost. This lead me to the other scripture, Hebrews 10:19-30.

2. As this is lengthy I will not repeat verses 1-25 here. "26, If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27, but only a fearful expectation of judgment ... cf v. 29-30, How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"

One might argue, regarding both Hebrews 6 and 10, that the person described has never been saved. The falacy of that view is that it can't apply for the simple reason that one not born again is 'dead in sins and trespasses,' and is already under God's judgment. Consequently, Hebrews and John 15 have to pertain to a person that is born again by faith in Christ.

You are correct when you state that obedience is the key to a relationship with Christ. God never abrogates (sets aside, cancelled out) human free will (volitional). This makes each of us responsible for out actions, words, and beliefs.

If you wish to post this on your site, please feel free to do so, whereever you desire. You may list my name and e-mail address should someone desire to contact me.

Continue to fight the good fight of faith once for all delivered unto the saints.

Your fellow-laborer for God's kingdom, William

Subj: great Catholic web page!

Date: 5/8/02 4:03:23 PM Central Daylight Time

I am going through a new and very trying ordeal in my life. I am dating and marrying a girl that was brought up Catholic. She has agreed to attend church with me and that we will not bring our children up Catholic. It's not all that important to her. But...her Mom..now that's another story! She insists of forcing the Catholic faith on her daughter, Karen (my fiance) and after every visit to Moms that Karen makes, she comes back questioning if she is making the right decision. I have therefore taken it upon myself to prove to her, through scripture, that the Catholic faith is not what Jesus taught. This new journey (which started about 3 months ago) has enlightened me to a much more troubled religion than I had ever suspected!

Anyway, I comend you on your website as a way to open the eyes of those who are deceived...and as a way to educate those like me. I wanted the straight facts and this was laid out in a format that doesn't get much easier to read. It helps me in my new "discussions" with the mother-in-law.

Finally, I would encourage you to keep addressing the church as the problem, as indeed it is. The people of the Catholic faith are often some of the most loving and giving I have ever met in life. They are simply deceived, but I know that they are loved by God, the same as you and I are, and none of us are above the other.

Keep up the good work! Jeff

Subj: Re: great Catholic web page!

Date: 5/9/02 8:33:48 AM Central Daylight Time

Jeff,
Thank you so much for you kind words and for sharing your story with me. I agree with you and think that you are doing the best thing you can do. Causing her to see with her own eyes the errors in the doctrine according to what the Scriptures say is the only way to open their eyes. The Word is sharper than any two edged sword and it is what will open their eyes to the truth. Just continue to pray for God to strengthen her in what she believes and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to her all the truths about this so that she will be confident. It is not only important to be confident in what you believe but to know why and where to find the proof in the Word. That is why there are so many weak Christians running around out there because they don't know why they believe what they do. You are most definitely on the right track and I pray for God's help in your situation and pray that God will reveal His truth to her mother also. What a great testimony that would be that her mother sees the light through you and your future wife's firm stand for the truth. God bless you in your efforts and if I can be of any help please don't hesitate to ask. In Christ, Adam

Subj: your wewb site

Date: 6/6/02 3:51:03 AM Central Daylight Time

Looks to me like you have a serious case of "catholic envy."

Perhaps I shoud say "pope envy" because your statements to your readers, whether Catholic or not, seem to be an attempt to make a definitive declaration about what is true.

However how can anyone know what you say is true?

According to you, they would have to rely on the Bible.

How does one know that the Bible is true?

How does one know that YOUR interpretation of the Bible is any more true than a Catholic interpretation?

By the way, do you acknowledge who it was that determined what books in the New Testament were inspired?

I suppose you think that you are doing the right thing.

However there is no point in discussing the wonder of God's Word with someone who has no interest in the search for Truth, only the exposure of his own theology.

You are a part of the thousands of so called Christian sects, protestant sects, or evangelical sects that derive their energy form attacking the Church. The irony is that though you attack the Church, you are a part of that very church, even if imperfectly, so long as you profess that Jesus is Lord.

You see Adam, all who believe are a part of the one Body of Christ, though all who believe may not be in full communion with the one Body, ie the Church.

There can only be one true Church, with Christ as her Bridegroom. He promised that He would stand with her until the end of time. He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

So Adam, if Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the universal church of Christ, then what makes you think that your stones and barbs are going to do anything except make you feel good.

Enough said. John

Subj: Re: your wewb site

Date: 6/6/02 7:59:06 AM Central Daylight Time

John,
Thank you for your email and the comments and for visiting the page. I am sorry that you feel the way you do and you are somewhat confused. I do not have any "catholic envy" as you put it, it is actually "catholic pity." I pity catholics because they refuse to find the truth for themselves and continue to blindly follow in institution instead of Jesus and HIS Word. The things going on in the catholic church right now with the sex offenders only solidify my point. These are men that in catholic's eyes are virtually flawless because you confess you sins to them. Yet they are molesting children right after confession. Catholic's have put their faith in "men" instead of God and His Word and the result is what the catholic church sees today. You are right about one thing, everyone that is a genuine Christian is in the body of Christ. Unfortunately not everyone that claims that title is truly saved. Catholicism teaches a much different way of salvation than the Bible. I am assuming that you read the pages on catholicism on my site. I can only encourage you as I do everyone that goes to those pages to look at the scriptures I give and prove them different. You are wrong about another thing, I do not try to pose my own theology, I use scripture to make points. Most all scripture does not need interpretation because scripture confirms scripture. Of course for someone that does not hold the scripture to be useful to start with it would be most difficult to do so. IN Christ, Adam

Subj: Questions about Theophostics

Date: 6/30/02 10:44:12 PM Central Daylight Time

Hello!
I wanted to ask a question about theophostics and other related systems of thought. My church has over the past three or four years taken on theophostics as its main counseling method. I have read some of what has been said pro and con, and I am very troubled by the whole trend.
I wish someone could answer some of the things that trouble me.
1. Is the consept of "breakthrough" a particularly theophostic term? My pastor constantly uses this term as if "breakthrough" is the objective of our spiritual experience.
2. What attachment do the teachings of Neil Andersen have to theophostics. In our church, going through the "Seven Steps to Freedom" has become a requirement of membership. In addition, all the leadership is required to go through theophostics, and those who refuse are dismissed.
3. My pastor tends to speak about prophetic messages as if they were infallible. He is involved in the Restoration of the Tabernacle of David, the Presbytery, and the "five-fold ministry." He believes that certain individuals are apostles and prophets restored to the church in the last time.
I am increasingly dismayed by what I see going on. I feel there is a shift away from teaching the Word to teaching man's thoughts. In obedience to my husband, I am staying in the church, but my heart aching for the Word of God. Please refer this to someone who might answer my concerns. I appreciate your time!
Sincerely,
SJWCEfjc@aol.com

Subj: Re: Questions about Theophostics

Date: 7/1/02 8:36:38 AM Central Daylight Time

Hello SJWCEfjc
Thank you for your email and for visiting my site. Your concerns and assessments about theophostics are very much correct. Timothy summed it up best in 2 Timothy 4: 3-4
3: For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Believe me that time is here and you are testimony to that along with thousands of others that are witnessing the same thing. It is truly a shame how that these so called "spirit-filled" churches are the main ones that are falling into this the most.

I will try to answer your questions the best that I can:

1. You ask about the term "breakthrough" being associated with theophostics. You will find that "theo" uses a lot of terms and makes them fit their line of teaching. It does not necessarily make that word a "theo" word, but when they use it, it does become attached with their connotation. I can not answer what your pastor is referring to when he points to a "breakthrough" spiritual experience. I would like to know how you breakthrough any more than being "born again?"

2. I honestly do not know of an attachment with Neil Andersen and theophostics. I know very little about this man or his books. Again, just because they use his teachings for their own doctrinal purposes does not necessarily mean the author intended it for that. Then again it is totally possible that Mr. Andersen is involved in this also. This is not a new teaching, it has been around for years just under different names. It was around about 20 years ago as "Inner Healing" and was really big then on the West Coast.
I am not one that agrees with "membership" in churches anyway, but I would definitely be cautious when they strap a mandatory requirement on it. Making leadership go through theo makes it clear that anyone questioning this method will not be welcome. I know of churches that have been in that condition and it is a sad thing to see. You are in a very dangerous situation because they are playing spiritual games with the people.

3. This is also not something new in the churches, leadership seems to be drifting to the spectacular instead of simply teaching the basics. This only proves that we are nearing the end of time.

My advice to you is to pray and fast about this situation and to direct it to your husband first. Pray that God will open your husband's eyes to it and show him the Biblical error in this teaching. You need to be concerned with your husband first and then together you can address the church and it's leadership. After praying about it I would also suggest that when you feel it is right to show your husband the teachings I have on my site concerning this teaching. Ask him to Prove theo Biblical according to these teachings. They can stretch scriptures but they can never find direct support for this belief.
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/adb4jesus/TheoPhostics.htm

You are so right in your feelings that today's churches are not teaching people what they need to know. I also encourage you to read the small book I wrote (online) concerning the condition of the church today.
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/adb4jesus/WhyIsTheChurchonLifeSupport1.htm

You are in a very hard situation but you are completely right in what you are thinking and feeling concerning this. Do not ever let them sway you to what they are doing, stay strong and you and your husband MUST get away from it if they refuse to change. The Bible says, "come out from among them and be ye separate.."

God bless you and strengthen you in this most important work you are about to do and please let me know if I can help you in any way.
Adam Bartlett

Subj: Your research

Date: 7/30/02 12:47:26 AM Central Daylight Time

Greetings in the matchless name of Jesus Christ.
I am so glad that I found your website. It has been on my heart for a while to really do research on "catholic" doctrine. I've read some of your research on which I TOTALLY agree with. The bible states that we are to beware of false doctrines and false teachers and preachers. The Word also states that we are NOT to worship idols yet the catholic faith does it with no quams. Why is that they feel it necessary to worship and pray to the pope, and statues when they cannot help them? Jesus said call on ME (Jesus) and I will answer. Jesus already paid the ultimate sacrifice when He died for our sins. He filled the gap. So why do they (catholics) believe that thier sinful pope who needs redemption himself is making supplication to OUR Heavenly Father. Have they forgotten that OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN.. not our father the pope,priest, whatever they want to call it. They have no scriptural bases for anything that they practice and yet still they try to ram false doctrines down our throats. I am not angry or upset I just feel bad for those that do not know any better. I hope that they come to the realization before Christ returns. Because it will be sad if they are still here with their popes and other enterage when HE comes.
Also have you done any research on the day of worship change regarding the sabbath ?
Thank you for taking the time to read my email. May God continue to bless and keep you.

Yours in the Master's service, Angie

Subj: Re: Your research

Date: 7/30/02 3:06:40 AM Central Daylight Time

Angie,
Thank you for your comments about the catholic page and for the encouragements. I rarely get positive mail about that page, it is mostly disgruntled catholics. It is very frustrating to see them blindly follow those doctrines as you said and very frustrating to try to show them that error.
I have talked to some Seventh Day Adventists and looked into the teaching of the Sabbath. I believe that there are some good points made by them but at the same time I don't beleive we are to be in bondage to "days" and "times." They put too much emphasis on the certain day in my opinion and it does not agree with what Paul said about not judging one for holding one day holier than another.
I also know that God's directive to keep the Sabbath holy and observe it for all generations was a directive to the Jewish nation. Jesus also summed it up when clarifying this point with the Jewish leaders about healing on the Sabbath. He indicated that the Sabbath was not for man but for the Lord. I think that we should most certainly have a Sabbath that we honor and that day should be kept as holy as we can keep it. To make it a matter of contention to me defeats the purpose of why we honor that day. Unfortunately in this country the majority of churches and those that go to them have fallen victim to complacency. Churches have lost their focus as to what they are supposed to be doing and those going are for the most part going through motions without sincerity. I have some very strong thoughts on what I consider a serious problem with our churches. You can find that on the page entitled "Why is The Church on Life Support."
I do not expect everyone to agree with what I have written on that page, but I do hope to awaken a few that take time to look at it.
Thanks again Angie and God bless you, Adam

Subj: (no subject)

Date: 7/29/02 8:47:46 PM Central Daylight Time

Hello,
I recently was at your website which so harshly criticizes the Catholic Church. I was raised Protestant, but recently converted to Catholicism. I completely respect your opinions, but I would like to share mine as well. Rather than defend everything you criticized, I am going to just stick with one: the concept of Purgatory. Long before I was even aware of what Purgatory meant, I believed in the general concept.
Purgatory is exactly that...a concept, not so much a psychical place. Vatican II made that fact very clear. I believe in it simply because it makes sense. This is how I think about it...A person who is saved dies. But before they die, they have committed a sin or basically have a sin in their life. They, for whatever reason have not yet asked for forgiveness. It does not matter what sin, they are all sins just the same. Anyway, It is a pretty known fact that the bible says only those with a pure heart (free from sin) may enter the kingdom of God. Will this Christian go to hell? Of course not, but they cannot yet enter the kingdom of God because they have sin in their life. What happens? They confess and purify their heart. This "state" which has became known as purgatory is definitely a concept in scripture. But because it is not a place, and may just last a moment and is completely a concept, it is not actually named. Over the years, this concept was personified to the point where it seemed almost as if this was a very distinct psychical landmark on the way to heaven. Of course the long overdue Vatican II cleared things up for those who had more or less ran crazy with the concept.
The fact that "purgatory" has became known to most as a terrible psychical place of punishment is most unfortunate, but people will become over zealous and exaggerate and believe what they want to believe.

Thank you for your time.
:-)
God Bless,
Kelly

Post Script: We do not pray to Saints and we do not "worship" or "idolize" Mary or the Saints. I could explain that if you are interested.

Subj: Re: (no subject)

Date: 7/30/02 2:36:44 AM Central Daylight Time

Kelly,
Thank you for your comments and I must say that I am sorry to hear that you were raised Protestant and now are catholic. That is not a new trend though, there are many Protestants turning to other beliefs. I would have suggested that you sincerely researched the catholic beliefs before you joined them though. It is quite unfortunate that you follow their doctrine and that you have allowed yourself to be indoctrinated by their teaching over the plain and simple truth of the Scripture. Your stand on Purgatory does not surprise me either as you have been brainwashed by catholic traditions that have NO scriptural backing. You say that the scriptures support this notion of Purgatory and I say PROVE it! You say that catholics do not pray to saints or worship Mary. I find it utterly amazing that any catholic can find the nerve to say that considering the blatant contradiction on their own behalf. Look at the following site and tell me that there is nothing to this "saint" business.
http://www.catholic.org/saints/patron.shtml
While you are at this site check out the prayers to these saints. Of course they are not advocating that you pray to these saints are they? Next if you are up to the challenge, just go to any of the catholic sites and look at all the pages dedicated to Mary and really read what they are saying. Heck, just go to any search engine and look up all the sites about Mary.
You cannot be serious about what you have said and you cannot be niave enough to think that this is not exactly what is happening. I truly hope that you give consideration the the things I said on my site. I also hope that you truly do what I have asked on my site and that is to prove my statements wrong with Scriptures.
Thanks again for your comments and I hope to hear from you again. Adam

Subj: Re: (no subject)

Date: 7/30/02 10:23:41 AM Central Daylight Time

Adam,
I am intelligent enough to know what makes sense, and what does not. I have not been brainwashed what so ever...I researched the religion thank you very much, among others. One of my major sources of information was a protestant Theologist.
We ask the Saints and Mary for pray, to help pray for us. We do not believe they have the power to help us whatsoever in a supernatural way, only God. Once again, Vatican II cleared that up. I'm sure you have pictures of your own family around the house? Why? Because you like to feel close to them. That is the same reason Catholics often have pictures or whatever of a particular Saint that they feel a connection with.
Being raised protestant, I had a bad imagine of other religions. I made the choice to decide for myself what I believe in! I first decided my own beliefs, then I researched to find what beliefs matched my own. That is the complete opposite of what you said. There was no "brainwashing" involved.
Purgatory makes sense, that is why I believed in it even before I knew what the word meant. You want proof? Well, I gave it to you already. It says in the bible in many different places, and in many different ways that basically you cannot enter heaven with sin in your life. Correct? Then will a saved person go to hell if they have an unconfessed sin? Of course not. That is proof with scripture. I know you must be aware it says that. I am not going to argue with you. I was just sharing my beliefs. I was very respectful when I shared my beliefs with you. You were just rude.
Thanks for trying to make me feel incompetent,
Kelly

Subj: Re: (no subject)

Date: 7/30/02 2:38:59 PM Central Daylight Time

Kelly,
I am sorry you took offense with my response to you but my objective has always been to provide the unadulterated truth as plainly as possible. Some people as yourself do not appreciate that approach and I can understand that. Unfortunately that does not negate the fact that what was said was the truth.
I have no doubt that you are intelligent, so were the Jewish rulers and Pharisees and Saducees and Lawyers which Jesus repeatedly rebuked. You see Kelly there is intelligence which all possess, but there is also truth and it must be first and foremost be based on facts not "feelings." You feel that Purgatory is right because it "feels" right, you believe that the catholic doctrine is correct because it matches what you think "religion" should be based on your research.
The fact is that regardless of any amount of research and putting aside "feelings" the truth can only be derived from the source of "TRUTH" and that is Jesus and HIS WORD. The fact that you deny to see is that the catholic belief refuses to follow the Bible as the authority for this truth. They place emphasis on their "TRADITIONS" in which they put on a higher level than the WORD. That is the truth and if you did research as you claim you would know this.
I point out those things in my page and that is what I was trying to get you to see but you got your feelings hurt because I pointed out the obvious truth to you. You use the argument that a Christian dying with even one unconfessed sin cannot go to heaven. That is totally absurd and not scriptural at all.
First of all the Blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin and all we are required to do is confess our sins to JESUS, not the pope, not a priest, not Mary, not a Saint. If for some reason we as a Christian were to die with something in our life that was considered a sin and we did not confess it, would not bar us from heaven. You forget that it was God that said that He looks on the "heart of man" and not on what is seen by man. God knows the heart and God is the judge and God will decide if a person's heart was pure. Which man on this earth would have a right to say that a Christian sinned in the first place before they died and know for a fact that this person did not confess it in their last moment of life?
I am sorry if it hurts your feelings but I still find it utterly amazing that you did research as you claim and still see no errors in the catholic teaching. Once again you have answered as many, many other catholics have that have come across my site. They have not provided scriptures because there are none. I guess you think that Vatican ll makes all their doctrines Biblically sound? I guess the pope proclaiming that creation was done through evolution is acceptable also. Apparently there is a lot you don't know about Purgatory either because it's original inception was so that they could pilfer money from the ignorant followers. They would offer to pray loved ones out of this place for a price. Of course those with loved ones did not want to take the chance that they may not make it to heaven so no price was too big and the leadership knew that. You don't have to believe this but if you research it as you say you will already know this.
I only ask the same from you as I have all that come to me regarding this. Go to the page and do as I ask, prove my statements wrong with Scripture. Go to the catholic's own web sites and recourses and show me where they have amended these erroneous doctrines. Then we can talk and hopefully then you will also see that you have not researched as you think.
Thank you again for you time, Adam

Subj: catholics

Date: 9/13/02 9:03:50 AM Central Daylight Time

Praise the Lord for your page regarding Catholics. I have two dear friends that the Lord brought out of the darkness of Catholicism. One
friend, after the Lord saved her, was so angry at the Catholic church she called crying saying, "they were condemning me to hell". Let us pray that this page would be such a thorn in their side that they would read the supporting scriptures and be convicted of their sin and their need of a personal savior.
Jo S.

Subj: About your site.

Date: 10/11/02 5:06:47 AM Central Daylight Time

Also, I'd just like to state that, you claim Christianity is the one true religion, and all others are nothing but cults, but honestly, Christianity is the first word that comes to mind when I think of "cult". Christianity ursurped the Old Religion, i.e Paganism, and has it's celebrations on the Witches Sabbats - or did you consider that mere co-incidence, perhaps?

I had a Jehovah's witness tell me the other day that I was going to hell, because I don't believe in God and I haven't been baptised. Well, let me tell you that I don't believe in Satan, either. He's merely a creation of your religion, and Paganism has nothing to do with him. Also, I don't think much of a religion that tries to scare people into joining it because of the supposed consequences if they don't.