John,

Thanks for you letter in response to the Eternal Security page on the Web Site. I appreciate your comments and would like to clarify a few points in regard to you letter. I think the best way to do this is to make these comments under the paragraph in question. Thanks again for your response, Adam

FIRST I COMMEND YOU ON YOUR STUDY OF THE BIBLE AND THE SERVICE THAT YOU ARE GOING TO BE PERFORMING. I HAVE JUST FINISHED READING YOUR EXTENSIVE WRITING ON THE SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER. THERE ARE SOME THOUGHTS THAT I WOULD LIKE TO SHARE WITH YOU.

ACCORDING TO MY THINKING IF YOU HAVE ACCEPTED CHRIST AND ARE A BELIEVER YOU HAVE ETERNAL SECURITY. IF A CHILD DOES NOT KNOW DAY TO DAY WHO HIS FATHER IS HE IS TOTALLY CONFUSED. IF HE IS GOOD ONE DAY AND BAD THE NEXT HE IS OUT. IF ONE DAY HIS FATHER LOVES HIM AND THE NEXT DAY HE DOESN'T THE CHILD WOULD BE AN EMOTIONAL WRECK. THE FACT IS THAT ONCE YOU ACCEPT CHRIST YOU ARE BORN INTO THE FAMILY OF GOD. IF YOU ARE IN JESUS YOU ARE A PART OF THE FAMILY.

I believe that there is a big mis-conception about the side of believing in the possibility of losing one's Salvation. I tried to clarify it in the study that it was not a matter of making one mistake and you are out and then repenting and you are back in. I do not believe that is the case at all and feel that if someone teaches this, they are in grave error. It is not a matter of the child not knowing who his Father is from one day to the next. I have complete assurance of my Salvation and know for a fact where my destiny is and if the view is explained properly assurance is never a question. It definitely is not a question of the Father's love, and I tried to make that very clear in the study also. Just as in the story of the Prodigal Son, the Father's love was never in question, but the Son's obedience and true repentance. I totally agree that once a person accepts Christ that they become part of the family of God. The Prodigal Son never ceased to be "a son" and in the parable of the servants that I used I pointed out that they never ceased to be "servants", and the five foolish virgins never ceased to be "virgins". But the bottom line in each of the cases (aside from the Prodigal Son) was that they lost their position and inheritance associated with those titles they bore.

TO BE A PRODUCTIVE CHRISTIAN YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT YOUR FUTURE IS SECURE. IF YOU DO A GOOD WORK YOU NEED TO KNOW YOUR FUTURE IS SECURE AND NOT WONDER DAY TO DAY IF YOU ARE ONE OF GOD'S CHILDREN OR NOT. FIRST WE NEED TO DEFINE A CHILD OF GOD.

WHO IS A BELIEVER? A BELIEVER IS ONE WHO HAS RECEIVED JESUS INTO HIS HEART BY FAITH. A BELIEVER IS ONE WHO HAS TOTALLY TRUSTED JESUS FOR HIS SALVATION.

THIS PERSON IS BORN AGAIN, JOHN 3:3, AND HAS BEEN MADE A PARTAKER OF THE DIVINE NATURE, 2 PET:1:4

As I mentioned above, you can be secure and should be secure in your eternal destiny even if you believe that there is a possibility of losing that inheritance by disobedience. Paul made it very clear in Romans 7: 14-25, that even though we are made partakers of that divine nature, we will always have this battle while on this earth with the physical nature as well. We will battle with the sinful nature all of our physical life. True, through Jesus and being born again we have the power to overcome that sinful nature. We also have the freedom to choose to exercise that power or allow ourselves to become captive to the sinful flesh. James 1:13-15, makes it very clear that "every" man is tempted by the "sinful flesh" which resides in each of us, and if we allow those "fleshly desires" to overcome us and we indulge in them that we give birth to sin. We are also told that we are able to continue in that sin and it will lead to death. I agree with you that Christians will not desire to give in to these sinful desires, but there will be times that it will happen. The question is not whether or not a Christian will fall into an occasional sin but can a Christian continue in that sin? That question I believe is answered by James and in the fact that just because we are born again we have not lost our ability to choose.

WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO APPEAR TO BE SAVED BUT HAVE NO INTEREST IN SPIRITUAL THINGS? TO MY THINKING THEY WERE NEVER SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE. THEY MAY HAVE MADE A PUBLIC PROFESSION OF FAITH, BAPTIZED AND ATTEND CHURCH, THEY MAY HAVE LOOKED CHRISTIAN BUT THEY WORSHIP THE WORLD. JESUS SPOKE OF THIS TYPE IN MATT. 7:22-23. IF THEY LEFT THEIR FAITH AND WENT BACK TO THE WORLD THEY WERE NEVER SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE. 1 JOHN 2:19. THEY DIDN'T LOOSE THEIR SALVATION, THEY DIDN'T HAVE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. EXAMPLE, JUDAS.

I have heard this statement hundreds of times in regard to this topic of Salvation; "they were never saved to start with". This is an easy solution, but I do not believe it is a valid point scripturally according to all of the scriptures I listed in the study. Example; in the parable of the Virgins in Matthew 25, where does it say that the foolish ones were not virgins? In the different parables of the servants where does is say that they were not servants? In Revelation chapters 2 & 3 who is being addressed, the churches, and what is said in 3: 5 & 16? In 1 Timothy 4:1, how can one depart from the faith, if they were never a part of it? And many more examples which apparently invalidate the statement above.

ROM 8:38-39. IF YOU BELIEVE IN THE WORD OF GOD YOU HAVE ETERNAL SECURITY. ROM. 4:21 GUARANTEES HIS PROMISE. THE WORK STARTED WITH GOD. HE IS THE ONE WHO BROUGHT CONVICTION. HE IS THE CONVERTOR AND HE IS THE COMPLETER. HE ALWAYS FINISHES WHAT HE STARTS. IF TO BELIEVE WE CAN BE LOST AGAIN IT DEFEATS THE ETERNAL PURPOSE. ROM. 8:29-30 SAYS THAT WE ARE PREDESTINED FOR A HEAVENLY HOME TO BE LIKE JESUS. GOD PLANNED IT, HE PREDESTINED IT, HE BROUGHT IT TO PASS. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BE SAVED AND BE LOST AGAIN BECAUSE IT DESTROYS THE PLAN OF GOD.

HE SEES US ALREADY IN HEAVEN. IF EITHER WE OR SATAN COULD CHANGE THAT IT WOULD MEAN THAT GOD IS NOT ALL POWERFUL. HE WOULD CEASE TO EXIST.

In the scripture Rom. 8: 38-39, I agree totally that Nothing can separate us from the love of God and from God's side that is true. God's love for us will never change, that is a fact, but our choice to abide in that love is still our choice. A perfect example of this is in John 15: 1-10, it is clear in vs.2 that it is the "branch" that is being addressed, and it is the "branch" in vs.6 that is cast away not the fruit. The reason it is cast away is because in did not "abide" in Him. I agree 100% that on God's part of His promise it will never falter, but on man's side of it Jesus made it clear in vs.6 & 10 that it is dependent upon our "abiding" and "obedience" to His commands. We also have to be careful how we view "predestination" so that we do not give the impression that one has been predestined to heaven or hell. God does desire that "ALL" men be saved and predestined that avenue by the death of Christ before the foundation of the world. However, God never took away man's freedom of "choice" and "will". According to the eternal security belief you cease to have a "choice" once you are saved. I do not see how it is belittling God or His plan for Salvation to allow His creation the freedom to choose to remain in the Eternal gift or not. When a third of the angels "chose" to follow Lucifer out of heaven, it did not destroy God's eternal plans, nor does it have that effect when man chooses to remain or leave the eternal gift. God never has desired to have robots for servants and that is the greatness about Him, it is all based on love and willingness to be a servant. God's greatness and Sovereignty is not diminished by the fact that He allows us to choose, and God's power is still the same which ever way we choose.

CHRIST MADE US PERFECT BY HIS SACRIFICE. NOT FOR A TIME BUT FOREVER. HE DID NOT MAKE A DOWN PAYMENT ON OUT SALVATION. HE PAID THE DEBT IN FULL. WHEN I WAS SAVED I BECAME A NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST. WE ARE NOT PERFECT IN THE FLESH BUT IN THE SOUL. IF I SIN I WILL BE CHASTENED. ROM. 4:5-8 WE ARE NOT SAVED BY GOOD WORKS AND WE CANNOT LOSE SALVATION BY BAD WORKS EITHER. WE ARE THEREFORE SAVED BY THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST. WE HAVE BEEN DECLARED PERFECT AS WE SEE IN 1 COR. 6:9-11.

2 COR. 5:17 SAYS THAT WHEN WE RECEIVE CHRIST WE BECOME A NEW CREATION AND BECOME A PART OF CHRIST. THE ONLY WAY TO LOSE THAT RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FATHER IS FOR THE SON TO DO SO FIRST. LOOK AT DAVID. HE SINNED MANY TIMES BUT STILL WAS A FAVORITE OF GOD. LOOK AT PETER. HE DID THE UNTHINKABLE IN HIS DENIAL AND DESERTION OF CHRIST IN THE TIME OF CRISIS. CHRIST DECLARED HIM TO BE ORIGINATOR OF THE CHURCH. SO WE WERE GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE WHEN WE WERE SAVED. GOD'S POWER IS THE GREATEST POWER IN THE UNIVERSE AND IT IS THE POWER THAT KEEPS US SAVED. IF SATAN COULD WREST ONE PERSON OUT OF THE HANDS OF GOD HE COULD HAVE THEM ALL. JOHN 10: 28-29. IN JOHN 10:28 THE WORD NEVER IS FOUND FOUR TIMES IN THE GREEK.

OUME=NOT AT ALL, BY NO MEANS EIS=TIME, PLACE, PURPOSE

HO=MALE OR FEMALE

AION=PERPETUALLY OR ETERNALLY

A TRANSLATION OF THIS IS "AND I GIVE UNTO THEE ETERNAL LIFE AND THEY SHALL NOT AT ALL, BY ANY MEANS, IN ANY CASE, IN ANY PLACE, AT ANY TIME, FOR ANY PURPOSE, WHETHER THEY BE MALE OR FEMALE EVER PERISH. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN LIFE IS SALVATION. THIS REQUIRES A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD THROUGH HIS SON CHRIST. THIS DETERMINES OUR ETERNAL DESTINY. THE NEXT MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THE ASSURANCE THAT WE HAVE BEEN LIBERATED FROM THE DANGERS OF ETERNAL HELL.

I agree 100% with the verses in John 10:28-29, but I would like to ask one question; where in those verses does it say that we have no choice to walk out of that hand? I will never disagree that God is all powerful, but as I said before I cannot believe that God would use that power to create robots that have no choice to serve Him. If you notice from the start of my response to you, I have never used the words "works" regarding this choice. It is not about "works" and never will be; the scriptures are clear that our works and righteousness are nothing more than filthy rags in God's presence. We do works out of obedience and love, but we choose to do them and are not forced are we? I agree that God will chasten us and do everything possible to bring us back home (just as the Prodigal Son) but it is always ultimately our "choice" to come back home or remain in sin. According to what you are saying, the Prodigal Son never had a choice about coming back home, and David never had a choice about listening to the Prophet Nathan. I believe they did have a choice and God illustrated their choice in these stories to show us the great mercy of the Father. I also believe God gave us the examples that were noted earlier (foolish virgins, servants, etc...) to show us the other side of the choice.

2 PET. 2:20-22 ARE VERSES THAT MANY TAKE TO MEAN A LOSS OF SALVATION. IN FACT THEY ARE JUST THE OPPOSITE. THEY TELL OF A PERSON WHO TURNS OVER A NEW LEAF WITHOUT RECEIVING A NEW LIFE. THEY MAKE ALL KINDS OF CHANGES, BECOME CHURCH MEMBERS, SERVE, AND APPEAR TO CONSECRATED CHRISTIANS. THIS IS RELIGION WITHOUT REDEMPTION. THIS TYPE OF PERSON CANNOT MAINTAIN THE ILLUSION OF THE CHRISTIAN LIFE. THEY WILL EVENTUALLY REVERT BACK TO WHERE AND WHAT THEY WERE. THE TRUE CHARACTER WILL EVENTUALLY EMERGE. A SINFUL LIFE CANNOT BE CONQUERED BY REFORMATION. THEY WILL REVERT TO WHAT THEY WERE. WORSE THEN BEFORE. THE TRUE NATURE WILL ALWAYS COME OUT. A PIG CAN BE BATHED, RIBBONED AND WHEN HE IS RELEASED HE WILL RETURN TO THE MUD THAT HE ENJOYS. MAN CAN LOOK GOOD IN CHURCH BUT LIVE IN SIN IN THE WORLD. HE WILL ALWAYS FOLLOW HIS NATURE. A NEW NATURE WILL WANT TO AVOID SIN. WE ARE NOT REFORMED WE ARE TRANSFORMED.

If you notice I did not use the scripture 2 Peter 2:20 in my study because I agree that it is not speaking of the topic of eternal security. I also do not think that this scripture nullifies the other scriptures that speak clearly on the subject.

MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT MATT. 24:11-13 MEANS THAT ENDURANCE LEADS TO SALVATION AND THE LACK OF ENDURANCE A LOSS OF SALVATION. TOTALLY BACKWARDS. A CHRISTIAN IS NOT SAVED BECAUSE HE ENDURES HE ENDURES BECAUSE HE IS SAVED. AGAIN COMPARE PETER IN LUKE 22:31-32. CHRIST TOLD HIM THAT HE WOULD FAIL. HE DID FAIL BUT HIS FAITH DID NOT. WE MAY WANDER BUT CHRIST KEEPS DRAWING US BACK. MANY ARE LIKE THE SEED ON STONY GROUND. THEY WITHER AND DIE. TRUE FAITH ENDURES AND PRODUCES FRUIT. REMEMBER THE WHEAT AND TARES? THEY WILL BE SEPARATED BY CHRIST AT THE PROPER TIME.

I agree 100% with your statement about endurance but I would like to look

at the parable in Matthew 13 about the sower and the seed. In vs. 18-23 Jesus explains the parable of the first nine verses. According to vs.20 the seed on the stony place was "received" but sought root in himself and did not last. It also says that this person received tribulation and persecution because of the Word; doesn't sound like someone that was not saved to start with. In vs. 22 He explains about one that receives the Word among thorns, but notice what is said, "he becometh unfruitful". It is apparent that he was fruitful at the start, which couldn't be true if he was never saved to start with right?

AGAIN IN JOHN 15:5-8 AN ILLUSTRATION IS USED TO TEACH A PICTURE OF A CHRISTIAN WHO HAS CEASED TO LIVE FOR CHRIST AND IS CUT OFF AND CAST INTO HELL. IN TRUTH JESUS IS NOT TALKING ABOUT SALVATION. HE IS TALKING ABOUT FRUIT BEARING. HIS WHOLE POINT IS THAT A HEALTHY ABIDING CHRISTIAN BEARS FRUIT AND A WEAK CHRISTIAN BEARS NO FRUIT. THIS DOES NOT TALK OF LOSS OF SALVATION BUT THE LOSS OF REWARDS.

I hate to be a stickler with words and I am not trying to be debative, but you make the statement twice above that this is a "Christian" being discussed. As I mentioned above about this section of scripture, it is clearly speaking about the "branch" being cast in the fire and not the "fruit". I will agree that the reason for the casting of the "branch" is because of lack of fruit bearing which is a direct result of disobedience.

JOHN 3:16. "FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON THAT WHO SO EVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD HAVE ETERNAL LIFE." LOOK AT THE LAST HALF OF THIS VERSE WHERE IT SAYS IF YOU BELIEVE YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. IF WE ACCEPT THIS VERSE AS TRUTH THEN WE CANNOT SAY THAT WE LOSE THAT WHICH GOD HAS PROMISED FOR ETERNITY. IF YOU ARE SAVED YOU ARE ETERNALLY SAVED. SO BE GLAD AND REJOICE IN IT.

MUCH OF THE ABOVE INFORMATION WAS TAKEN FROM A SERMON THAT I READ ON THE INTERNET. I HAVE ADDED MY OWN THOUGHTS WITH THOSE IN THE SERMON.

JWS8924

John,

I am grateful for your letter and hope that we can discuss this openly without harboring any animosity. Thanks again for your response. Adam

Subj: Eternal Security?

Date: 3/4/02 10:03:43 AM Central Standard Time

From: GSEKJV

To: ADB4JESUS

Hello.

It is my understanding, that your view point is not eternal security, once you are born again. I know the verses you have refferred to concerning the possibility of losing one's salvation. Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Now, if someone can do something to lose their salvation, (once they are truly born again), then someone else can do something to keep their salvation. At this point, it ceases to be a Grace and Grace alone salvation, and becomes a works salvation. You of course are entitled to your point of view. However, we do use the bible as our authority, and while I do not ignore the scriptures you sent, we must rightly divide them.

Romans 11:6 " And if by Grace, then is it no more of works, otherwise, grace is no more grace. But, if it be of works, then is it no more of grace, otherwise work is no more work.: The bible clearly tells us that we are saved by the Mercy, Grace, and faith in Jesus Christ, and justified by his shed blood, and that alone. Titus 3:5,6 " Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost, which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour." Ephesians 2:8,9 For by Grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyman should boast." We can go on and on, this is not based on just a few scriptures as suggested. Romans 3:27-28 Where is boasting then? It is excluded, By what law? of works? Nay, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the law." Romans 4:4,5 " Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Galatians 2:16, "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of JESUS CHRIST, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law, for by the works of the law, shall no flesh be justified. " Our Saviour is Jesus Christ, his blood, his Grace, his Mercy. If these verses are true, and these are just a VERY few to confirm eternal security if we are in Jesus Christ, then we have a problem, if what you tell us is true.

Now, if those verses I have sent are true, then if we can lose our salvation, based on what we do, then the bible is wrong. Then it HAS to be a works salvation. So then, we must rightly divide the truth. For all of us are already condemned without Jesus Christ, and if salavation is dependant on the works we do or don't do after recieveing the Lord Jesus Christ into our hearts, then His blood is not sufficient.

In fact, lets look at one of these verses you say determines we can lose our salvation. Mattew 7:21-23. What are these folks pointing to. Are they pointing to their faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (it is Him that justifieth the ungodly.) Are they pointing to his mercy, his grace, total dependance upon him? Nay, rather they are pointing to themselves. Look what we have done Lord, WE have prophesized, WE have cast out devils, WE have done many wonderful works, and WE have done them in your name. (not by works of righteousness.) This is why they will not make it. We are totally dependant upon our Saviour and Lord, Jesus Christ the righteous. Are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

We must remember that Judas also did many wonderful works, enough so as the other disciples did not know he was the one to betray Jesus. Did Judas lose his salvation? Well, if he did, then why did Jesus say that he was a devil from the beginning? Those true believers in our Lord Jesus Christ, the true born again believers, will be chastened by the Lord. Romans 6:1, What shall we say then, shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. We are under grace, but that does not give us a liscense to sin.

We can point to MANY, MANY, MANY more scriptures to show us the eternal security, in Jesus Christ is a fact, and we must rightly divide the word of truth. However, if we can lose our salvation, then the bible is nothing but a contradiction of itself, and not worth the paper it is printed on. I am persuaded though, that the bible is the Word of God, and that it is true, and will agree with itself. I will rely upon the blood of Jesus Christ, and have faith that He that has begun a good work in me, shall perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. I will rely upon HIS grace and mercy. Thank you for your time, of course, you are entitled to your opinion. However, the Word of God is greator.

In Our Lord Jesus Christ.....

Gary Elder

Subj: Re: Eternal Security?

Date: 3/5/02 10:51:45 AM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: GSEKJV

Hello Gary,

Thank you for your email and for the lengthy discussion of what you believe to be the truth. I have heard all those arguments before and seen all the scriptures you provided used in those arguments. You, as all the others that use this argument cannot see that you are confusing "Obedience" with "Works." There is a vast difference and you will never find anywhere in my teaching that I advocate "works." On the contrary if you read any of it at all you will find that every implication is placed on "Obedience." Aside from this point you have also done as everyone else has done and that is to avoid doing what I asked in my page. I asked that anyone that chose to argue the point simply show me how those scriptures do NOT say what I have indicated that they do. The reason that you have not done this nor anyone else is because the truth is too evident in the scriptures. The Eternal Security doctrine has done more harm to the Christian community than any other doctrine introduced. It gives a false impression and leads to weak and lukewarm Christians that are comfortable being that way because they feel they can never lose that salvation. If anything the argument that has been waged against my belief stands more true of the Eternal Security belief than anything else. That argument that it cheapens Grace! Grace is cheapened to the maximum when you give false implications to Christians that Obedience is optional because you could never lose it anyway.

Gary, are you going to be the first to tell me that the Virgins in Matthew 25 were not virgins to start with? Are you going to be the first to tell me that they did not have the "Oil" to start with? Are you going to be the first to tell me that their lights were not burning to start with? Read Matthew 21: 28-32, which son was the one that did the father's will? Was it about the "WORK" in the vineyard or was it because of the "OBEDIENCE" that caused him to be accepted? In Matthew 13 the Sower and the Seed are you going to be the first to tell me that the seed was not "RECEIVED?" Are you going to tell me that they did not really accept the "SEED" when the Bible says that they did? It was lack of "OBEDIENCE" not "WORK" that caused the seed to be unfruitful in each case that it wasn't, not WORKS! I could list an abundance of scriptures that indicate the same thing and have done so on my site. You have not done anything to disprove one of the scriptures but only say that I am basing my belief on Works. I tell you that "WORKS" has nothing to do with it, but if you are OBEDIENT the works will be there. It is a convenient doctrine to teach that a person never has to worry about their salvation because it can never be lost. I will agree to one point that the Eternal Security belief uses and that is that NO MAN can take it from you. You forfeit it by disobedience. I have a question for you Gary. Why did Saul lose his Kingship? Was it because he failed to "WORK" like he was supposed to or was it because he failed to "OBEY?" What happened to Saul after he lost his Kingship? Did he get closer to God? Or did he start turning to the world for his answers and subsequently die in his sins? Was the end result due to lack of WORK or OBEDIENCE? 1 Samuel 15:22 says that Saul was told that OBEDIENCE was better than sacrifice.

Gary I hope that you get the point and I also encourage you to read the response to the Eternal Security page and see the response to another man that brought the same arguments as you have. I encourage you to put aside your doctrinal biases and look at what the Word says. I look forward to hearing from you again, in Christ, Adam

Subj: (no subject)

Date: 3/5/02 1:30:08 PM Central Standard Time

From: GSEKJV

To: ADB4JESUS

Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee. Boast not thyself of tomorrow. Today is the day of salvation.

There were ten men who went to a church. The old preacher was preaching that all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. He was preaching that all are lost and on their way to hell, for eternity, because of the guilt of our sins. He preached about the Lord Jesus Christ, coming to earth, God manifest in the Flesh, who lived a perfect sinless life. He preached that he shed his blood on Calvary's tree. He was and is a risen Saviour. He preached that Jesus Christ is our passover Lamb, that Jesus is the Way, the truth, and the life, and that no man cometh unto the Father, but by Jesus Christ. That humbling ourselves, admitting our guilt, and sincerly asking Jesus Christ to come into our hearts, and be our Saviour, knowing that we are condemned already without the Son. That all of our righteousness are dirty rags, and that we are in need of God's mercy, manifested in the Lord Jesus Christ, God the Son. He preached that there is no other name given amoung men, whereby we must be saved. He pleaded for their very souls to come to the Saviour, Jesus Christ. Five men, pricked at their heart, convicted of sin, of guilt, of shame, wasted no time further, and asked Jesus Christ to be their Saviour. Today is the day of salvation. The other five were also convicted of sin, knew they needed Jesus Christ in their lives. However, they took a different route. They knew they needed Jesus Christ, a Saviour, that they were lost without hope. But, they thought they had plenty of time. I will ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness the next time I come to church, thought one. I will ask for forgiveness when I am a little older, thought another, what would my friends think thought another, and so it went with them. They all thought they had plenty of time.....but in an hour when thou thinkest not.......that night, all ten men died. This night, thy soul shall be required of thee. Five, who did not put it off, recieved Jesus Christ into their hearts. Well done, thou good and faithful servant. ( Remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom, ....Verily I say unto thee, TODAY, thou shalt be with me in paradise.) The other five, heard these terrible, awful words, Depart from me ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. ( Ten virgins.....hmmmm.....) And what shall ye do with Jesus who is called Christ?

I am more than happy to answer, and not ignore, ANY and all scripture.....we must rightly divide the word of Truth.....is our salvation dependant upon ourselves? Or do we depend upon Jesus who is called Christ? This is your descision of course.....and this is His commandment, that we believe on the name of his Son, Jesus Christ..........take care........in the love, and the name of our Saviour, saved by his blood.....Gary.

Subj: Re: (no subject)

Date: 3/5/02 4:13:29 PM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: GSEKJV

Gary,

Thanks again for your lengthy reply and to your surprise I am sure I agree with everything you have written. I agree that today is the day of salvation and I agree that there are some that will accept and some that will not. I still see how this is relative to the discussion of whether or not it can be lost. I still have not seen you show me that any of the scriptures I listed does not indicate what they say. Your stories are nice and they are heartwarming but the scriptures cut through the sentiments and speak the truth. Please don't misunderstand me, I am not angry at you or anyone that might believe this doctrine, I am angry at the doctrine itself and what it has and continues to do.

In Psalm 51:11 David knew that it was not something to take lightly and just assume that God would not take away His spirit. How could that possibly happen to an eternally secure person? The Bible is very clear about this and as I said before if you show me that the scriptures I listed do not say what I indicated then I will remove them. You know as well as I do that it is impossible to intelligibly say that those scriptures do not say those things. The truth is, you have been indoctrinated by this teaching and have never opened your mind to search the scriptures yourself and see if that teaching is true. Again I encourage you to read the following that was previously sent to me by another brother that believes your teaching.

Responses to the Eternal Security Page

Gary, we can obviously argue endlessly about whether or not the other is accurate or not. The only answer must be derived from the Bible and I again encourage you for the 5th time to take the scriptures I have listed in my previous email and on my page and show me how they do NOT say what I have indicated. In Christ, Adam

Subj: Re: (no subject)

Date: 3/6/02 3:12:12 AM Central Standard Time

From: GSEKJV

To: ADB4JESUS

Sir, thank you for your response as well. First, I will answer each and every one of your arguements in due time, although this is not feasable for me to do in a single email, you must agree. First, you tell me my stories are nice and heart warming. Gee, thanks. What I did, sir, was give you an alternative meaning, alternative to yours, for the parable of the ten virgins. ( Boy, Jesus, what a nice heartwarming parable you just told.) God forbid we should ever take that attitude when reading the parables (which are stories) told by our Lord Jesus Christ. If you intend to challenge the biblical fact of eternal security, which is your right, you must do something also. What you accuse us of, sir, is exactly what you are doing. We give you , and I will be happy to send the scripture references again to you, many verses that do indicate eternal security. I will answer each and everyone of your arguements, but tell me that the verses we send don't mean what they say they do. What you have done is exactly what you say we do, skipping over them, in favor of your own doctrine, warned by us in the book of Galations by the apostle Paul. Now, if you are patient, I will answer each and everyone of your scripture references, taking the scripture as a whole, and in it's proper context, which you say I cannot do. I just did for one of your examples, the ten virgins. Which is what I believe the scripture to be saying in that particular passage. I will address each and EVERY one, albeit not all at once. I have no need to fear the scriptures, the Holy Spirit is my teacher, through his word, which is quick and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword. Now, be patient, sir, and might I encourage you to listen as well. Thank you....G

Subj: Re: (no subject)

Date: 3/8/02 9:10:02 PM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: GSEKJV

Hello Gary,

Thank you for your response and I have been busy and not able to get to my email for a few days. I see that you have sent several along with this one though and I look forward to reading them and responding. As for this one I hope that this is not the extent of your supposed proof for the Ten Virgins. If so, then as I indicated you have not answered any of the questions I posed. I will save the remaining remarks for the rest of your emails. Thanks again and look forward to sharing the truth with you. In Christ, Adam

Subj: The Parable of the Sower..more to come....

Date: 3/6/02 9:33:22 AM Central Standard Time

From: GSEKJV

To: ADB4JESUS

Romans 2:28 But he is a jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God. When a person is truly born again, he is circumcised in his heart, it is an inward change. Matthew 13:18-23 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart, This is he which recieved the word by the wayside. But he that recieved the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy recieveth it, Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a little while,for when tribulation or persecution ariseth, because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that recieved the seed among thorns is he that heareth the word, and the care of this world, and the decietfulness of riches choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that recieved seed on the good ground, is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it, which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundred fold, some sixty, some thirty.

Let us look at this parable in greator depth and get into specifics shall we?

Vs.19, we all have witnessed, or at least heard of those who simply reject the word of God, have we not? These are those of whom this verse is speaking. Is there any arguement there? I should think not at least.

Vs. 20-21. The seed that fell on stoney ground, of course we know that the ground is the heart of men, and the seed the word of God. We often see a preacher, well trained in the art of inducing emotional responses from people, give an invitation. He may have just preached a sermon that gave the full gospel of Christ, and planted these seeds. There are those who will go forward, and profess salvation and belief in Christ. They do endure a little while. They "do" all the right things. However, by and by, we see these people go back to the world. This is easy beliefism that is prevalent, and on that point, we are probably in agreement. However, what does this verse 21 say? He hath no root in himself. The seed never took, because it had nothing to hold it there. A seed needs ground to grow. Any farmer can tell you that. The seed never took though, because there was no root, the ground being the heart. Circumcision was not of the heart, but only emotional, or intellectual, but not an inward rebirth. So this person, without the root to hold the growth in place, never really took. I have seen this many times.

Now then, let us look at the seed recieved in stoney places. The care of this world and the decietfullness of riches choke out the word, which is the seed. Why does not this plant grow? Because it is choked out. Now, you can make the arguement that this person was saved, and lost his salvation. However, another scripture comes to mind when we read this verse. Some also by the way, say that this person is a carnal christian, which I will address in a later email. There was a rich young ruler who was seeking salvation, and he went to Jesus to inquire of him. (Matt. 19:16-24) Assuming you know the account, Jesus tells him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor. and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possesions. You see, this man did not have the proper heart towards God, his heart was not good ground. Circumcision is that of the heart. God is talking about sowing the seed, which is the word of God, into the heart, which is the ground. It is a heart change Jesus Christ is after, recieving Jesus Christ into the heart, and changing the inward man. This ground was not good.

However, let us look at the last verse, The good ground is that heart which Truly surrenders itself to Jesus Christ. When this happens, we can sing a brand new song "Amazing Grace", because Jesus Christ has paid our debt. This person will bear fruit, however, does this person bear fruit of his own obediance? Certainly, obediance is what God wants of us all, and if men had been obediant in the first place, there would have been no need of a Saviour. If we were obediant to God, then we could keep the law of Moses to God's satisfaction, for when we fail, we are sinners, except for the righteousness of Christ. Now, what causes this person to bear fruit? Let us look at another scripture. Let's look at John 15, which I will address in another email, for a moment. John 15:4-5 abide in me, and i in you, As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,except it abide in the vine, no more CAN YE, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches,He that abideth in me and i in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit, for without me, ye can do nothing. If a person truly is born again, he will bear fruit, for Jesus Christ shall abide in him. Let us look at still another scripture. Jesus says, in Matthew 7: 17-18, Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, but a corrupt tree, bringeth forth evil fruit. A GOOD TREE CANNOT BRING FORTH EVIL FRUIT, NEITHER CAN A CORRUPT TREE BRING FORTH GOOD FRUIT............. Jesus said that a good tree cannot, cannot bring forth evil fruit, and an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Therefore if one is truly circumcised of the heart, and is born again on the inside, a heart change, Jesus says that it cannot bring forth evil fruit. Not only that, Jesus says that it wil bring forth fruit. A true born again Christian will bear some type of good fruit. Now, if someone claims to be born again, let us look at the parable of the sower, and decide from their. I realize of course that you do not agree, and I understand your point of view.....However, my explanation is every bit as possible to be true as yours, and not only that, will in fact strengthen eternal security, once TRULY circumcised of the heart. Now, don't get impatient, sir, I will address ALL of the scripture references you give, EVERY one, but to address everyone is simply not possible in a single email, nor do I have the time to address every one at one time. Thank you again......in our Lord Jesus Christ....Gary

Subj: Re: The Parable of the Sower..more to come....

Date: 3/8/02 9:57:21 PM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: GSEKJV

Gary,

Again this response is exactly what I expected and obviously you did not read the response on the Eternal Security page because I covered most of these issue there. Your argument on the parable of the sower of course would follow the lines that is consistent with your belief. That of course being the argument that these first three people were obviously not saved to start with. That is always the easy answer for this belief when they cannot find a way to get around a scripture. The Bible says that they "RECEIVED" the seed but that the results were not the same. It does not say that the first three did not "RECEIVE" the seed but "only pretended to" does it? It is very "Spiritual" of the Eternal Security believers to have this special insight that they know the intentions of man's hearts when that right is reserved for God alone. It is amazing that they have the unique spiritual capability to not only have this insight but to "KNOW" that they were never saved to start with. I must confess that it should be a humbling experience for me to be able to discuss an issue such as this with someone of such superior insight to the "spiritual" awareness of all men. Unfortunately I rely on the simple truth of what the scriptures say regardless if they agree with Calvin or not.

I find it quite interesting that the first person in question is said to have the seed "SOWN IN HIS HEART." It is very easy to understand your view though that this seed was only "PROFESSED" to be sown, it really wasn't. I am glad that you pointed that scriptural error out to me.

I find it quite interesting also that the other two situations were planted but were "choked by the cares of the world" and "persecution." Actually that agrees more with my view than yours. Oh, silly me, I forgot, these seeds were only "Pretending" to be planted! I fail to see your involvement of the Rich Young Ruler because it is totally irrelevant to this issue.

I am not surprised that you bring up John 15 although I have covered that on the web page and in the response page. However you brought it up so I will respond to that also. I cannot see how the use of this scripture needs to go any further than Vs. 2: Where were these branches in question? "IN HIM" of course your argument will be that they were only "PROFESSING" to be "In Him" right?

On to Matthew 7, you bring up the Good Tree and Bad Tree example. You make the statement that "Therefore if one is truly circumcised of the heart, and is born again on the inside, a heart change, Jesus says that it cannot bring forth evil fruit." I have but one question for you Gary. Have you ever sinned since you were born again? Is that not bad fruit? Are you still saved? Were you saved to start with? Ok, four questions! Point is, you will sin after being saved and therefore you will bear bad fruit from time to time. The point of this verse is about continuos production of that particular fruit.

I look forward to the rest of your emails. In Christ, Adam

Subj: Revelation 3:5-6

Date: 3/6/02 10:59:50 AM Central Standard Time

From: GSEKJV

To: ADB4JESUS

A Tare....Darnel: a weed of which some varieties are poisonous. It looks much like wheat, until the near end of the harvest, when the two can be easily distinguished.

Matthew 13:37-40 He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man, the field is the world, the good seed are the children of the kingdom, but the tares are the children of the wicked one. The enemy that soweth them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of this world.

There are many, many tares in the wheat feilds today. Many are professing christians, who look like the real thing, but we shall know them in the end. With this in mind, let us look at Revelation 3:5-6 shall we? Now, just who should it be that shall overcome? I beleive with all my heart, that he that has begun a good work in me, he shall perform it until the day of the Lord. Those that overcome shall be the true believers in Christ. The truly born again. Upon examination, this scripture does not say in Revelaton 3, that he will blot out the names of the born again who have lived a carnal life. It does not say that, saving we add it to this scripture. I submit to you, that this is a promise from our God, the Creator, through His Son Jesus Christ, that we have security in him. It is a promise, that He will NOT blot out our names from the book of life. Let us also look at another verse in chapter 3. Why would Jesus be calling upon these people to repent? If these people have fallen away, it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them again unto repentance is it not? Could it not be a calling to return unto the true gospel of Jesus Christ? Remember the parable of the tares......The true believers in Christ shall not be blotted out....not the easy beliefismers......mind you, but the truly born again.

Let us look then to the old testament. Exodus 32:32-33 Yet now, of thou wilt forgive their sin, and if not, blot me I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

The bible says, that all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God, that there is none righteous, no not one. As I sit here, I wonder, is Moses in heaven? Surely not, because if we recall, he sinned against God, and God would not allow Moses into the promised Land. According to this verse, then, God must have blotted Moses out of the book of Life. The same with Samson, or Jonah, or even Peter. We are all under the penalty of sin already. If he were to blot all who have sinned against him, there would not be a one of us written in that book, and for him to blot us out, surely we must have been in that book to begin with, no? Based on your own words? Remember now, if these people simply fell away, and then repented again, we have a major conflict within the very scritpure you quote, Hebrews 6:4-6, says that it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them again unto repentance, does it not? What about David, was not David the same David who killed Goliath, because he dared go against God? Did not this same David kill a man to have the man's wife for his own? Surely, God must have blotted his name out of the book, for it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them again unto repentance. Now, keep in mind, if you choose to use old testament figures as examples, which you have, then don't give me the arguement that Jesus Christ had not come yet, because in so doing, you must not use the old testament to further your point either. I wonder, is Adam and Eve in heaven? Surely not, for if anyone had tasted of the heavenly gift, would not it have been them? Circumcision my friend, must be of the heart. So I rejoice, when my God tells me he shall not blot out my name out of the book of life, because of the gift of eternal life, promised us through belief in His Son, Jesus Christ, who is our advocate, our Redeemer, our Saviour. I will surely address more of your points soon. In Christ.....Gary

Subj: Re: Revelation 3:5-6

Date: 3/8/02 10:23:15 PM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: GSEKJV

Gary,

You following arguments only prove that you have not read my pages at all because I have covered all of the things you listed, David, Moses, and the rest. Again, since you brought it up I will respond. What about David? You tell me what would have happened to David had he not "repented" when approached by Nathan? You tell me how that Moses, obviously "Knowing" that his name was in the book could be blotted out? You tell me what would have happened to the Prodigal Son had he not returned to the Father? Of course knowing that you have this vast insight into the souls of man that you can determine that they were not serious to start with is a silly question. What about King Saul? Where did he end up?

You fall back on the same old argument that all your cohorts do that one sin dooms a person. You again have failed to read the conclusion of my page or you would have seen my response to that. I am getting tired of repeating what I have already printed plainly. I am sorry sir but you are the one twisting scriptures and meanings to this point and might I add not very persuasively.

Look forward to the next one. IN Christ, Adam

Subj: 1 Cor. 10:1-15

Date: 3/7/02 9:24:04 AM Central Standard Time

From: GSEKJV

To: ADB4JESUS

Hebrews 12:6-8 For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he revietheth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? BUT IF YE BE WITHOUT CHASTISEMENT, WHEREOF WE ARE ALL PARTAKERS, THEN YE ARE BASTARDS, AND NOT SONS.

When a person is born again, does he know the scriptures fully? Does He know what the bible says? He may know some, but is in need of instruction, no? Just as a child is in need of direction from his parents, so is it with the regenerate man, the newly born again. The babe in Christ. For those of us who are worried that christians feel like they just have a liscense to sin, God will chasten his own. He may let them go their own way for awhile, and often does, but, he will chasten those that are his own, the bible makes this very clear. To the person who claims to be born again, and goes out and sins at will, and shows no fruits of the spirit, and has no chastening of the Lord, is that person what he claims to be? I should think not.

With these things in mind, let us look at 1 Corinthians 10:1-15. Before we go there however, we must keep in mind, that the Lord will chasten his own. Also, we must remember to take the scripture as a whole, and study to show ourselves approved unto God. We must remember, and must not forget, what Paul has written earlier in 1 Corinthians. Chapter 3 of this book, vs. 1-4, speaking to whom? to the brethren, as we will see. And I brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat, for hitherto ye were not able ti bear it. neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal, for whereas there is among you envying and strife, and divisions, are ye yet carnal, and walk as men? For while on saith, I am of Paul, and another, I am of Apolos, are ye yet carnal. Paul is speaking to the BRETHREN here, is he not?

Now, let us look at chapter 3, picking things up at verse 11 and through 15. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST. now if any man build on this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble, Every man's work shall be made manifest, for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire, and th fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, ( the foundation of JESUS CHRIST!) he shall recieve a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss, but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED, YET SO AS BY FIRE. Please, you tell me what the apostle Paul is saying here.

Now, keeping in mind this chapter in the 1 letter to the Corinthians, let us turn to chapter 10 now. I shall not print it, for you know what it says, and if you need a refresher, to check it out, get your King James out. Look at verse 4 for a moment if you would. Is he not giving Israel as an example of what not to do? He is, however, how then, if it be Israel, should he write, that Rock was Christ? Has Christ, Messiah yet come unto the Israelites at this time? Just what is He reffering to? For one, it gives credibiltiy to the fact that Jesus Christ is the Ancient of days, from Everlasting, the great I Am. Study that verse, and tell me what He is saying here. Now, read these verses again, and tell me where it says, that God is going to take away our salvation. Do so, please, without adding it to the verses. Does he say, he will destroy us? As you say? It says, this is what happened to them. Now, if Paul is saying here, that our salvation is going to be taken away, then explain to me please, chapter 3. We must remember, that the Lord will chasten his own, as it is written. Was not, upon further review, God chastening Israel? Yes, he was, so then, did He give Israel a liscense to sin, because they were his chosen? Neither does he give us a liscense to sin, because we are under his grace. ( Romans ch.6) He will chasten us. With these things in mind, not forgetting to take the whole of the scipture, let us then look at verse 12. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed, lest he fall.

God will chasten those he loves. There will be consequences, if we choose to sin, if we are not dilegent...(yet he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.) I can think of two,(actually many more, but two for now) examples of christians who did not take heed, or did not way the reality of whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reep. One man was a preacher. A very strong preacher who was doing a good work. He however, in a moment of weekness, made a "pass" so to speak, in the direction of a young, very pretty, and very married young lady. This man, by this moment of weekness, lost everything. He lost his church, he could no longer preach at this church, for this sin surely found him out. All the labor he put into building this church, creating by the grace of God, lost in a moment. He did not take heed, and he fell. This woman, no longer attends church, divorced her husband, married another, and is very turned off by church. Think we not, that this man shall not answer for this? The flock is scattered, and the church in ruins today. This man fell. However, I know this man, and feel compassion for him. He had a VERY repentive heart, and was anquished in his soul for what he had done, not unlike David, of whom you use as an example. I believe with all my heart, this man is SAVED, by the same blood he always was, and did not lose his salvation. Yet, he did not take heed, and he fell, and he fell hard. Now, tell me, please, the disgrace this man suffered, the loss he suffered, the damage it did to his family, tell me please, did not God deal with this man? Did God let him get away with anything, as you seem to be so worried about? Of course not.

Another example of a man, a christian, who worked at a bible camp with me this past summer. He was a born again christian, and STILL is. However, this man, although in his late 30's, married, with two children, also fell. He made a pass for a very young girl (late teens). He did not touch her, nor did he "do" anything. What he did, was say some VERY suggestive things to her. This of course was found out, and he lost his fulltime position at the camp, his marriage was put in jeopardy as his wife was devestated, the damage it did to the reputation of the camp, the damage it did to his children, all very real. God gave his a way out, as in verse 13. but he did not take it. Now then, I know the man personally, had many good talks with him, I believe, without a doubt, this man is saved, his desire continues to be to serve the Lord. However, it will take years for him to recover. Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Please, tell me in this case as well, that this man did not have to endure the chastening of the Lord. He made a terrible mistake, that cost him plenty of loss. Tell me though, that he himself shall not be saved, yet so as by fire. Tell me please, he lost his salvation, for if he did, it is IMPOSSIBLE the bible says, to renew him again unto repentance.

Thank you again for your time, I will indeed answer each and EVERY one of your references if you continue to be patient, and wait for the responses. We must study the word of God, and God HAS called us to walk, even as He walked, but remember please, circumcision is that of the heart, and this determines our salvation, if we have recieved Jesus Christ, into our hearts, or if we have rejected him, Our God looketh at the hearts of men, sir. Thank you again, and I do understand where you are coming from, as I understand the teaching of the Assembly of God churches quite well. I understand, you have come out of that denomination, which I applaud. If I am mistaken on this account, I apologize sincerely from my heart. in our Lord Jesus Christ....Gary

Subj: Re: 1 Cor. 10:1-15

Date: 3/8/02 10:54:47 PM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: GSEKJV

Gary,

I have never said in one place, page, teaching, or anything that I do not agree that God will chasten those whom He loves. To do so would be to disbelieve scripture, however you once again are twisting the very scriptures that you choose not to answer the very direct questions I provided. I will do you a favor, I will provide those very pointed questions again right now so you are not confused and go off on these tangents that are not related. Regarding 1 Corinthians 10: 1-15 here are the points I made on my page which you did NOT address in your email:

Vs. 1 - Paul is clearly speaking to "brethren"

Vs. 2 - Paul says that they were " All baptized", not unbelievers

Vs. 3 - They "All" ate of the "spiritual meat", not unbelievers

Vs. 4 - They "All" drank of the "spiritual drink", which was "Christ", not unbelievers

Vs. 5 - They were "overthrown"

Vs. 6 - They were "examples" that God’s people can lust after "evil things" to the point of their destruction

Vs. 7 - It is possible for "US" to become "idolaters"

Vs. 8 - It is possible for "US" to commit "fornication"

Vs. 9 - We are told that if "WE" put the Lord to the test He will destroy us

Vs.11 - Again we are told that this is an "example" for us to heed

Vs.12 - We are told that "WE" can fall

Vs.13 - God will give us a way out of sin, but "WE" must take that way out, He will not force us out of the situation

Vs.14 - We are again admonished to "flee from idolatry", why if we can not lose anything?

If we look at these verses in the perspective that you cannot lose your salvation, then there are some glaring questions that need to be asked; for example, Why would this be given as an example and stressed that it is an example twice for "brethren" if it were not possible for the things described to happen? Why, speaking to "brethren" does Paul say that we can fall? How can this section of Scripture be explained away as not speaking to the church, then WHO?

I am sorry Gary but this scripture is using Israel as an example to show "US" what is possible in our lives if we allow it. He stresses that it is an example to us and that we are susceptible to these very things. Your reasoning that it applied to Israel and not us is ridiculous. You examples about your friends is nice but does not illustrate that the opposite could not have happened if they had chose to say in their situation. According to your reasoning, God will not allow you to stay in that state even if you choose to. So according to your thinking, a person that is in your mind "truly born-again" will have no choice to remain that way but is forced to. Because if they do stray away, God will force them to return, boy that does not agree with the Prodigal Son! He Chose to come back! David chose to come back, Peter chose to come back, you have yet to answer the question of what happens to them if they did not? Of course your easy way out of that is to say one of two things; They either were not saved to start with or they would come back because they were truly born again. What a convenient doctrine! I also fail to see your connection with those in 1 Corinthians 3 that are "saved, yet so as by fire" with whether or not you could lose your salvation. They were saved and had no rewards to show for their Christian walk, does that validate either side?

Lastly regarding this email, I did not come out of the Assembly of God church and that only proves that you have not read my pages. You are really starting to frustrate me with having to reiterate what is already on my page and your statements that prove you are not reading them. It is obvious that you are ingrained with this doctrine and that is your prerogative I am not out to persuade you, only to present the truth of the Word. You approached me, remember, you need to read what I have already written before running in circles. IN Christ, Adam

Subj: Hebrews 10:26-29

Date: 3/7/02 11:34:55 AM Central Standard Time

From: GSEKJV

To: ADB4JESUS

Romans 7:19-23 For the good that I would do, I do not, but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that which I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find the a law, that when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin.

Let us examine what is being said here. There is a law of sin that dwells in our mortal bodies. This sin is always there present with us. This body is dead, because of it. However, the apostle Paul says, I delight in the law of God after the inward man. Circumcision, is that of the heart, as we have learned earlier. Keeping these verses in mind, let us go to Hebrews 10:26-29.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man. We know what Paul is writing here in Romans, do we not?

Hebrews 10: 26-27...For if we sin willfully, after that we have recieved the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. But a certain fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Surely, the author of Hebrews, some say it is the Apostle Paul, writes here to remind these jews, and yes, to us as well, what happened in the old testament, most likely reffering back to Numbers 15:30. Now then, I ask just what is it to sin willfully? Remember, Paul has written in Romans 7 that there is a law of sin that brings us into captivity, because it dwelleth in our members. So then, just what is a willful sin?

Hebrews 10: 28 He that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses. Circumcision is that of the heart, is it not? For I delight in the law of God after the inward man. Psalms 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God, yea, thy law is within my heart. 2 Cor. 3:3-4.. Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward. Now I put this question to you, we delight, if born again, in the law of God after the inward man. Now, how can such a one despise the law of Moses? One with an unregenerate heart would certainly despise this law of Moses, in the heart, no? Hebrews is driving a point home to us here.

Lets then look at Heb. 10:29 which seems to be so troubleing, and seems to shoot down eternal security. Seems.

Of how much sorer punishment suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the convenant, wherewith he is sanctified, and unholy thing, and hath done despite the unto the Spirit of grace?

How am I ever going to get around this verse? I am not, I accept this verse fully. I do not fear scripture. Let us remember 26-28, that is what happened to those who despised Moses law, they died without mercy. Hebrews does not say, that this is going to happen to the saved man. It really doesn't. It say, suppose what would happen, of a saved person had a change of heart? A definite awful punishment, if this scenario were to occcur. I have no problem with this verse whatsoever, for if this were to happen, I believe such an one would be subject to something unimaginable, as it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. To the truly born again believer, though, one has nothing to be afraid of, for although there is a law in my members warring against the law of my mind, the law of sin, I delight after the law of God after the inward man. I know the rebirth within me that has taken place. You know what, should I ever have a change of heart, I would not want to be me any longer. However, he that has begun a good work in me shall perform it until the day of the Lord. I can't help but have confidence in my Saviour. He will chasten me, nor leave or forsake me. Romans 8: 34-39 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ who that died, yea, rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall seperate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persucutioin, or famine, or nakedness of Peril, or sword? As it is written For thy sake are we killed all the day long, We are counted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay in all these things we are more than conquerers, through him that loved us.( John 3:16?) For I am persuaded that niether death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to seperate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. All of the folks who do not believe that we have security in the Lord Jesus Christ that I have encountered, tell me when confronted by this scripture, yes, all those things cannot seperate you from the Love of Christ, except yourself. Well if I can do that, then I was never truly born again to begin with. Not to mention, that is adding to the scriptures.

In fact, going on a bit further in Hebrews 10, looking at verse 35, the bible tells me Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward.

I Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things, nevertheless, I am not ashamed, FOR I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED, AND AM PERSUADED THAT HE IS ABLE TO KEEP THAT WHICH I HAVE COMMITTED UNTO HIM AGAINST THAT DAY.

I will surely answer more of the scriptures you have mentioned, as soon as I have the time. Thank you....in Christ....Gary

Subj: Re: Hebrews 10:26-29

Date: 3/8/02 11:31:28 PM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: GSEKJV

Gary,

Again you want to confuse the issue by going to Romans 7 and talking about the sinful flesh and circumcision of the heart. Again you did not answer the simple statements I made regarding the scriptures in Hebrews 10 so I will supply them again:

In Vs.26, the writer is including himself in the verse "we," not speaking to lost.

In Vs.29, this person was "sanctified by the blood," not speaking to the lost.

In Vs.30, the Lord is judging who? "HIS People," not speaking to the lost.

I also want to give you some Scriptures that deal with what constitutes a "knowledge of the truth" as indicated in Vs.26; John 8:32, 1Timothy 2:4, & 4:3, 2Timothy 2:25, Titus 1:1, 1John 2:21, and 2John 1, and there are many more.

The facts indicate clearly who is being addressed in this passage. God will not force anyone to serve Him, allowing each of us with our freedom of willful choice to obey and serve His commands. This freedom was clearly demonstrated when a third of the angels in heaven chose to follow Lucifer. We walk away from the gift of God, He does not take it from us. Only God knows when we cross that line, but until then the Spirit will not cease to convict and seek to draw that person back into the fold of God. God is Love, but God is Just also and will not allow you to choose sin and Quench the Spirit (1Thess. 5:19), and still enter heaven.

I have no doubt that a Christian can be kept until that day as you have added that scripture. In fact that is one of the biggest misinterpretations of what I believe. I do not think it is a light thing that a person can lose their salvation. I do not think it is a matter of one simple sin and it is over. I have made that very clear and that is the frustrating part of these discussions with people like you. You have failed to read the pages that I have already provided and you have failed to answer the simple statements I make with each scripture I use. You, as are all like you are very adamant about trying to convince me that I am wrong, yet you never show me the things I ask on the page. Thanks again and on to the next one. IN Christ, Adam

Subj: John 8:31

Date: 3/8/02 7:25:14 AM Central Standard Time

From: GSEKJV

To: ADB4JESUS

John 8:31 Then said Jesus unto those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed.

Before we discuss this verse, let us turn back a a couple of chapters in John, okay? Let's look at John 6: 64-71 But there are some of you that BELIEVE NOT. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that BELIEVED NOT, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of HIS DISCIPLES WENT BACK AND WALKED NO MORE WITH HIM. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the Living God. Jesus answered them, have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon,, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

FACTS....

Jesus knew from the beginning, who it was that did not believe.

many of his disciples, drew back, they are called disciples, and walked no more with him.

Judas was called one of the twelve, whom the Lord had appointed Apostles in other sciptures. He was a devil.

Those that remained with Jesus believed and were sure Jesus was that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Just why did these "disciples" of Jesus draw back? Why did they walk no more with him, did they lose there salvation? It is difficult to lose your salvation, when you never had it to begin with. Let us note, that these "disciples" of Jesus drew back, because they did not truly believe. Jesus KNEW from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and yet, they were following him at the time. It was their unbelief. Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas was a devil, now, please tell me how a devil can be born again? He never was.

Now, looking back, with these things in mind, let us look at John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed. Just what then, is the sign of a true disciple in Jesus Christ? One that continues in his word, such as the ones that remained with Jesus. Where should we go Lord? Thou hast the words of eternal life. This is not the same, my friend, as a carnal christian. Those folks who followed after Jesus, and yet, after he had called their bluff, by saying they did not believe, they did not follow after him any more. And that is because of unbelief. If you do not continue to believe in Jesus Christ, then you never truly believed in the first place.

1 John 2:19 which was also mentioned by those who do not believe the blood of Christ, and that alone is suffiecient for sin, have used this verse, but they forget a very important part of it. They went out from us, but they were not of us, FOR IF THEY HAD been of us, the would NO DOUBT continued with us. but they went out, that they might be made manifest, that they were not all of us.

Do you notice what is being said, here, they were NOT of them, because if they had been, they would no doubt have continued, ( John 8:31) with them.

So John 8:31 does not say someone is going to lose their salvation, but rather indicates a sign of a true believer in Jesus Christ. There is much more to come, as you have other scriptures I have not addressed to this point, it does take time, as we must compare it to other sciptures, because surely the bible will ALWAYS back itself up. Thank you again, in Jesus Christ our Lord.......Gary

Subj: Re: John 8:31

Date: 3/8/02 11:52:36 PM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: GSEKJV

Gary,

It is quite interesting how you go back two chapters and try to use verses out of that text to agree with what you are trying to say about the present verse. First, I agree that a disciple is one that follows Jesus' teachings and that was exactly the point I was making with John 8:31. You are the one trying to tie it to a previous verse to make your point more credible. I also listed other verses along with that verse that you apparently failed to look at. Once again you are on a wild goose chase trying to use the same old argument that a person was never saved to start with. That gets old after a while Gary, try something new.

You are as bad as the catholic people that write me about the catholic page and never stick to the content of my statements on my site.

Gary, it is quite obvious that you know the Bible fairly well and are most definitely blindly indoctrinated by this Calvinistic teaching. That is your choice and I will never try to force you to believe otherwise. However, it is quite fruitless to discuss this any further when you are obviously quite content in your stand I in mine. I honestly don't have time to debate this issue with you when I have made all the points on my site and you refuse to see them. You are free to choose your own path regarding this issue and you obviously have. I am sorry that you refuse to see the simple truth of the Word and instead cling to a doctrine that is man made. I would say that I wish you the best, but that would be pointless since you can do whatever you please and never worry about anything. What a life, I wish I could say that I could follow that line of thinking but would really like to be counted in with the "Wise" virgins. I would also say God bless you, but what bigger blessing could you get than to have free reign in the spiritual world with nothing to lose? IN Christ, Adam

Subj: Sir,

Date: 3/9/02 7:23:49 AM Central Standard Time

From: GSEKJV

To: ADB4JESUS

Sir, there is no point in going on any further. You have challenged people to answer your scripture references, and yet you ignore other scriptures. The bible must be taken as a whole, with study and cross referencing, and it will always agree. I am more than capable of answering each and every one of your references. Just because you do not agree, does not mean it is not so. I have studied this issue through prayer, and intensive study for years. Now, in one night, you simply passover these references. I challenge you, to study these references. You are guilty of the very same thing you accuse others of. You are close minded to anyother doctrine, that does not agree with your own, regardless of what the bible says. Good Wishes to you sir, but, every idle word that men may speak, he shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. So I would be careful, if I were you, when saying that it is impossible to answer in any other way than your interpretation of the scripture. We must Rightly divide the word of truth, through study, just what does that mean anyway? As I said, there is no point in going further, because you are stuck in a false doctrine, and unwilling to study it out, and compare these versed to the whole of the scripture. Thank you again, but again, we must agree, it is pointless to go on further. How can you have answered, and read each letter I sent, so quickly, saving you did not study each one for several hours or days? You could not have. in Christ...Gary

Subj: Re: Sir,

Date: 3/9/02 1:24:25 PM Central Standard Time

From: ADB4JESUS

To: GSEKJV

Gary,

In Matthew 25: 1-12 the facts are: Vs. 1 - They are all called "virgins", no where does it say they only claimed to be virgins. They are all going to meet the bridegroom; the lost will not be doing so. Vs. 2 - They are called "foolish" but never said not to be virgins Vs. 7 - Again they "all" go out to meet the bridegroom. NOTICE; in vs. 7-8 that they "ALL" trimmed their lamps and that even the foolish virgin's lamps were lit. They said that they "went out," which is impossible if they were not lit to start with! We know that the "lamp" or "light" represents our witness according to Matt. 5: 14-16.

In Matthew 25:14-30 the following facts: Vs. 14 - They are all called "his own servants" Vs. 18 - He buried "his lord’s money" Vs. 21 - "His Lord" said... Vs. 23 - "His Lord" said... Vs. 24 - The third servant says "I knew thee" Vs. 26 - "His Lord" answered... Also did not say he was not a servant, just a "wicked and slothful" one.

Vs. 27 - The lord still considered that he would have received "his own" which would have been this servant had he obeyed his Lord.

Luke 12: 42-48 the following facts: Vs. 42 - Establishes who is spoken of, "the steward" Vs. 45 - Still speaking of the same servant, that he turns from his ways (voluntarily) Vs. 46 - The lord of "that servant", places him in the category with "unbelievers" Vs. 47 - The servant "knew his lord’s will", but did not "OBEY" it, willingly

It cannot be any clearer than the example that Jesus left with this parable, that a person can know what is the right thing to do and not do it, and pay the penalty later. It is clear that the servant was a faithful servant but turned his back on his lord and the result was to be placed with the unbelievers in the judgment. How can this parable be explained other than the facts of what it says?

John 15: 1-6 the following facts: Vs. 2 - The branch that beareth not fruit is "taken away", NOTICE where the branch is to start with.... "In me." Vs. 6 - The branch that is not producing fruit is cast into the "fire," the entire section is talking about the vine and branches, and it is clear that the branch is "in Christ" and if it does not bear fruit, it will be cast into the fire.

The facts are clear that the branch was "in him" but did not bear fruit and was therefore cast into the "fire."

Romans 11: 16-22 the facts are: Vs. 21 - It is clear that the grafted in ones, if not obedient would not be spared Vs. 22 - It is clear that this grafting in is conditional "if thou continue," and it is also clear that if you do not continue then you will be "cut off." To try to make this say other than it does is twisting the Scripture to make it fit a doctrinal belief. It is very clear cut as the others to this point have been also.

1 Timothy 4: 1-3 the facts are: Vs. 1 - "some shall depart from the faith," how can someone depart from the faith if they were not saved to start with? What are the implications of departing from the faith? Vs. 2 - They have their "conscience seared," they depart from the truth they knew and follow the deceit.

NOTE: If they depart from the "faith" then they have no part of it, which only leaves the alternative.

Hebrews 6: 4-6 the facts are: Vs. 4 - What does it mean that they were "enlightened"? I believe the answer to that is in the rest of the verse. They have "tasted of the heavenly gift," what gift could that be? SALVATION!! The proof of that is in the next statement, they "were made partakers of the Holy Spirit," A lost person cannot partake of the Holy Spirit, you receive the Spirit (become a partaker) when you are saved (Ephesians 1:13).

Vs. 5 - They have "tasted" the Word, and the "powers," can a lost person know what it is to "taste or partake" of the Word? Can a lost person know the "powers" of the Spirit?

1 Corinthians 11: 28-32 the facts are: Vs. 28 - Why would there be a need to "examine" oneself, if there were no chance to lose your salvation?

Vs. 29 - There is no question that Paul is addressing Christian brothers, and he states that they could bring "damnation" upon themselves. How can that be possible?

Vs. 32 - This verse clearly states that the Lord "chastens" us so that "we should not be condemned with the world," where does it say in that verse that we CANNOT be condemned with the world?